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today we welcome Gordon white back to

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skeptic Oh Gordon is of course the

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creator and host of the very excellent

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room soup blog and podcast as well as

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the author of several really cool

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interesting books you see him there on

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the screen starships the chaos protocols

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and one other what is it Pieces of Eight

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isn't that's the one that's the other

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one he's been a popular guest on skeptic

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oh and I always look forward to

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welcoming Gordon back to talk about all

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sorts of goings on so Gordon welcome

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back to sceptic oh it's it's an absolute

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pleasure to be back ok I need to ask you

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a favor right off the bat one of the

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things I think is really cool about rune

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soup the podcast is you have this

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opening question and everyone knows this

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by now but you ask people were you a

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weird kid growing up and I thought wow

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this is cool I have to do some kind of

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question so I started this question and

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I cannot get it right so you're gonna

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have to help me coach me show me how to

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do this but here's the question that I

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guess I think is relevant to skeptical

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and I want to ask people and I want to

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find the right way to ask it but I want

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to tune in to the first experience

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people have with knowing in kind of a

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sciency logic reason standpoint and how

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that can be transformative and also how

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knowing from a spiritual if you will

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standpoint and how that can be profound

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but maybe I'm just stretching it out

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there it doesn't have the simplicity in

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the punch I think not being a scientist

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that one maybe we would because I think

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I know how I'm gonna answer it but maybe

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that needs to be rephrased too like when

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did you first realize that we can learn

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things via empiricism or reasoning like

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when was your first like oh well I can

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actually do a thing and learn something

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as a result of it and I guess for me

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that when we have a small crustacean in

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Australia called

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yeah be and it's basically a small

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freshwater kind like mini Lobster and as

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a child I think because I had I still

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have rural cousins and they had them in

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their dams and we had a couple of them

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that I sort of kept as pets for a while

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so as a kid maybe about five I suddenly

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realized that you could I was aware

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looking into this kind of fishbowl with

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these things and I could feed them

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certain stuff and keep them alive at

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different temperatures and have them

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grow that there was a sequence of things

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that I could do to observe an organism

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and the other one at about 12 or 13 I

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went to science the word to do with like

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looking at peripheral vision

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and that turned out to be a kind of hot

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because it was it was funded by a

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chemical company well a hydrocarbon

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company and they funded this sort of

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statewide competition for people to like

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design science experiments and the

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winners got this really bizarre prize

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which was he got to spend a three-day

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weekend and essentially like a youth

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camp where you would you visited a

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nuclear facility and the games that we

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would play had reps from the company

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there and they were asking questions

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like who would you invite to out of

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anyone in history here would you invite

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to dinner and like getting people to

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test like different little bottle rocket

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stuff and I'm like you guys are actually

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I who might actually want to pay for

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going through university and I kind of

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worked that out at about twelve and

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misbehaved so they didn't pay for my

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University but I might this is odd I

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just I just did a little science

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experiment at school and all of a sudden

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I have to spend three days with a oil

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company executives having him ask weird

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questions so those are the two from a

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science perspective but it the one that

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sticks with me is the idea that you can

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there's a body of knowledge that you can

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apply to keep an out an animal or

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whatever alive the spiritual one is

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easier and it's I guess it's stretches

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spiritual I think this want to be good

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this is a good question to ask people

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because mine would have been sleep

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paralysis hag attacks which I would have

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had I've had since I was about four so

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it unbidden entity contact some of which

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may or may not have been a screen memory

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we're two things but I was a kid that

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that happened to and so my first

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spiritual experience was not that

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pleasant frankly and I had a sequence of

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them and the science one I think if

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maybe if we talk about it is when did

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you first realize you can use reason or

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you can reason out how we can know

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things about the world but those are my

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two answers I like it I like this is a

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very skeptical double question to start

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with I really like the way you kind of

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are moving that and it is because

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science part throws people and I like

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the way you just kind of recast it there

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at the end because I think that is the

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experience that I'm trying to tap into

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is that that idea that I can through

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reason have some control over things

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even if it's just knowing and

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extrapolating from that but I could know

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other things you know I mean it's kind

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of like the first launching point to

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knowing more and yeah I think the

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spiritual thing is kind of interesting

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too because I've always had a very

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frightful kind of first experience that

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is kind of like a sleep paralysis thing

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but it was kind of this I forget the

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term for it but it's like this when you

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feel your body is misshapen you know

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kind of like really in extreme

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exaggerated kind of ways and I remember

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experiencing that England whoa what's

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going on and it really kind of freaked

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me out when you a kid yeah yeah yes of

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my sequence so I had classic hag attacks

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where would be sleep paralysis might be

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sort of slowly become aware but there

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was an entity in the room that was

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waiting more or less at the door until I

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became aware of it and then it would

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come right up close and and I wouldn't

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be able to move and I couldn't open my

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eyes and it was right there and it was

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clearly a thing that delighted in and

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was probably feeding off the fear but

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the other thing that I think is

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potentially a scream memory has a body

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shape changed to it it starts off as

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sleep paralysis but I would get

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microscopically small to the point where

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the fabric of the bed sheets were thick

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as skip wrote that was it there would be

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I had memories of them and as a result

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so hypodermic needles became huge and I

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had a vision of

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an experience of them really large

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needles being near me and then also a

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Romulan Daddario dex class for the Nerds

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out there warbird as a thing that was

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there and this is ou and and a figure

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that had a beat ped so this quite

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clearly looks like some sort of screen

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memory of a thing but it's interesting

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you mention the body shape change

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because I knew this particular one was

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coming on because I'd still sleep

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paralysis but my impression was a sure

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to microscopic size so you still have

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sleep paralysis huh no I haven't not

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since actually not magic but I have so

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they all kind of went away at about 13

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and it's the thing about however they

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work the thing about simple house

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protection and and sort of bedroom

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protection stuff that you find

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everywhere around the world is that they

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really do work and you really don't need

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any skill in it like you because I was a

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kid and I'm reading out of these you

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know wicker books and some sage in you

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know some salt around and yeah and you

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and and I don't know what to tell you it

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works which rather suggests it however

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we you know use these terms or define

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them and a lot of whatever is going on

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is mind right but yeah it gave it up for

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me that's one way to interpret it I

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think that's really that's really

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interesting and maybe that leads us into

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kind of how I framed up our little talk

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today because I heard you've done so

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many awesome interviews but one that you

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did recently was with our friend over at

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forum berry Alice al and what I really

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liked about his interview is he went

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back to the starships book which i think

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is as much as it is appreciated by folks

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I think it's underappreciated and I

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think it had a couple of interesting

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little guideposts that I still follow

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and I find myself quoting all the time

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I'm skeptical and one is this idea of

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the data versus the interpretation of

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the data and it's a rather a simple idea

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with profound application that winds up

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being

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in so many more places than we usually

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talk about it but I just explained to

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people I was like the how you talked

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about in the dig because we can really

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understand the person who's digging it's

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not the person but go ahead and just

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explain so one of the things Nassim

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Taleb said in his most recent book that

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i really really liked is you don't ask

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the carpenter who built the roulette

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wheel for gambling advice because it's

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not you they might have domain expertise

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over here but that's not necessarily a

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thing that doesn't imply that they have

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domain expertise in something that

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happens to be separate or even adjacent

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so when you when you're talking about it

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from an archaeological perspective

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absolutely there is a skillset involved

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in digging and cataloging and and and

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doing the carbon 14 tests and all the

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other stuff that goes with actually

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generating data from a archaeological

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project what how we interpret that data

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is a completely separate skill set it is

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its philosophical I mean you can certain

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you might actually be good at both but

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it doesn't necessarily follow that you

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would be another example are used in

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chaos protocols which I like is a

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dentist might be good at making money

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but it doesn't necessarily follow that

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he or she would be good at keeping money

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it is a different skill to generate

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money and and to invest it and we we

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very often conflate these things and the

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when it comes to the kind of stuff that

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we talk about on our respective shows

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we're both I mean I my previous job was

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global data director it's literally in

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my title so I rather like data and I

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rather like interpreting it and I've

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spent a lot of time thinking with how

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data are generated and at what

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interpretive modes are the most useful

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and who has good ones and and so on so I

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really like and I think if you focus on

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this it does allow you to swim in some

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stranger waters this is a very Chaos

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magic perspective I suppose it allows

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you to swim in some really strange

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waters because and there are no data

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that aren't irrelevant

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it's just how you manage the kind of in

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and out and who you listen to and

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including yourself in that in terms of

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interpretation and data

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so on and I think it's a really good

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00:11:09,420 --> 00:11:07,630
yardstick for digging into topic areas

274
00:11:10,740 --> 00:11:09,430
that are I mean you've got the ancient

275
00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:10,750
aliens picture on the screen here

276
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:12,640
digging into topic areas that might be

277
00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:16,330
kind of that low quality if you will but

278
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:17,590
there is still quality in there there

279
00:11:22,050 --> 00:11:19,930
are still good data and and it's looking

280
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:22,060
at where whether that interpretation

281
00:11:26,850 --> 00:11:24,310
that comes from say the ancient aliens

282
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:26,860
program is is the best one for looking

283
00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:29,170
at the anomalies that we do in fact find

284
00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:31,990
in history and probably not at least as

285
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:34,630
described dementia you know let's talk

286
00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:35,530
about that for a minute

287
00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:38,620
I think ancient aliens is a phenomenal

288
00:11:44,340 --> 00:11:41,590
show and I think if we're just to apply

289
00:11:46,650 --> 00:11:44,350
the fair standard across the board in

290
00:11:48,420 --> 00:11:46,660
terms of how academia is dealing with

291
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:48,430
the data versus how they're dealing with

292
00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:50,890
the data to me they're their heads and

293
00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:52,510
shoulders above no matter how poorly

294
00:11:57,210 --> 00:11:54,430
they do it they're so far ahead you know

295
00:11:59,520 --> 00:11:57,220
we did the interview together with John

296
00:12:01,440 --> 00:11:59,530
Brandenburg and I think you did it and

297
00:12:02,730 --> 00:12:01,450
we broadcast on skeptic oh he's on there

298
00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:02,740
all the time and he's brilliant I'm

299
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:04,660
constantly watching him on there and I'm

300
00:12:08,430 --> 00:12:06,730
on what wow this is super insightful and

301
00:12:11,220 --> 00:12:08,440
not everyone they have on there is just

302
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:11,230
a zest exactly right yeah and but back

303
00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:13,570
to your point I think you know the

304
00:12:18,570 --> 00:12:16,240
tricky thing the the dirty little secret

305
00:12:23,340 --> 00:12:18,580
about the data versus interpretation in

306
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:23,350
my experience is therein lies the the

307
00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:25,050
problem is the never-ending

308
00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:27,750
interpretation filtering there is no

309
00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:30,940
endpoint really into how far it can be

310
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:32,860
interpreted so it's almost like one of

311
00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:36,010
those axioms that we can never you know

312
00:12:42,030 --> 00:12:40,120
get past because we're constant that we

313
00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:42,040
are always interpreting and the

314
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:44,140
interpretation is always open to change

315
00:12:50,820 --> 00:12:47,530
given when we find how those filters

316
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:50,830
need to be changed so why don't you like

317
00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:54,130
18 aliens it's not it's not that I don't

318
00:12:59,550 --> 00:12:58,210
like it I think you have when you have a

319
00:13:03,079 --> 00:12:59,560
hammer everything looks like a nail

320
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:03,089
and so bouncing up and down the

321
00:13:09,210 --> 00:13:06,130
historical record looking for buildings

322
00:13:10,620 --> 00:13:09,220
that are impressive and saying aliens

323
00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:10,630
must have done that whether it's India

324
00:13:14,930 --> 00:13:12,760
in the 1400s or whether it's gobekli

325
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:14,940
tepe or whether it's the Maya

326
00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:18,450
what have you is insufficiently nuanced

327
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:22,860
to take the discussion or the analysis

328
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:25,650
or the interpretation to that next level

329
00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:28,560
now my background is in I have a

330
00:13:32,510 --> 00:13:30,030
background in in multi-channel

331
00:13:35,090 --> 00:13:32,520
television so X Discovery Channel and

332
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:35,100
one of the problems is whether the

333
00:13:38,630 --> 00:13:36,480
problems with multi-channel from a

334
00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:38,640
commercial perspective is they don't

335
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:40,680
have very they aim for evergreen

336
00:13:45,170 --> 00:13:43,170
programs so they aim to build a program

337
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,180
that is the same every time and is

338
00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:47,040
popular and when I was at Discovery

339
00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:48,540
Channel it was Deadliest Catch because

340
00:13:51,890 --> 00:13:50,430
it doesn't change every season it's a

341
00:13:54,890 --> 00:13:51,900
bunch of guys on a boat with big waves

342
00:13:56,810 --> 00:13:54,900
and people loved it and and the trouble

343
00:14:00,740 --> 00:13:56,820
with a long-running program like ancient

344
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:00,750
aliens is exactly that the majority of

345
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:02,370
the the money that a multi-channel

346
00:14:06,590 --> 00:14:04,560
broadcaster makes is in long-running

347
00:14:08,930 --> 00:14:06,600
programs that they can sell to other

348
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:08,940
networks and so on right so ancient

349
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:10,730
aliens is a victim of its own success

350
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:13,440
which is it can't ever change because

351
00:14:17,810 --> 00:14:15,510
it's hit a formula that allows people to

352
00:14:19,790 --> 00:14:17,820
watch it and unfortunately that is where

353
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:19,800
you get into variable levels of quality

354
00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:21,510
because yes dr. Brandenburg's amazing

355
00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:23,640
I would suggest instead that people

356
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:24,780
maybe read his book

357
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:28,710
and get like some some pure John because

358
00:14:32,630 --> 00:14:30,240
I have friends who are who've either

359
00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:32,640
beam on it or turned down being on it or

360
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:34,680
I've been on it going I regret that I'm

361
00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:36,330
not going to do that again and it's

362
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:37,980
largely because you sort of sit in front

363
00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:39,920
of a blue screen and you kind of have to

364
00:14:44,180 --> 00:14:42,180
they'll arrange the question so you say

365
00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:44,190
a thing and get a soundbite then they'll

366
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:46,740
kind of sequence so it's you know it's

367
00:14:53,150 --> 00:14:49,890
an ambitious and obviously it's a very

368
00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:53,160
fascinating and valid area to cover it's

369
00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:54,270
just where they're a long-running

370
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:57,710
multi-channel program can deliver

371
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:00,240
sufficient quality over time and I don't

372
00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:05,040
think it can is why okay I want to move

373
00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:06,540
on because I have so many other things I

374
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:08,580
want to talk to you about but I will not

375
00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:13,650
move on I will persist one thing that I

376
00:15:20,510 --> 00:15:17,070
guess I'd push back on is your first

377
00:15:24,190 --> 00:15:20,520
point I think the nail that they're

378
00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:24,200
pounding on is the correct nail and

379
00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:27,750
given the mountain that they're they're

380
00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:28,360
trying to

381
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:31,510
I'm the the predominant view that

382
00:15:35,069 --> 00:15:32,560
they're up against

383
00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:35,079
and through throughout academia just and

384
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:36,820
it's so pervasive that this couldn't

385
00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:38,320
possibly be true and especially

386
00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:40,500
concerning how long running the show is

387
00:15:46,199 --> 00:15:43,510
yes that we do need an alternative

388
00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:46,209
explanation for why the pyramids look

389
00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:49,480
the same as the pyramids over in Central

390
00:15:55,230 --> 00:15:52,630
America into the larger question is why

391
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:55,240
do keep people look up to the sky you

392
00:15:59,670 --> 00:15:57,040
know why is there their instinct but I

393
00:16:01,410 --> 00:15:59,680
do the Dogon tell us that you know that

394
00:16:02,699 --> 00:16:01,420
hey they just tell you straight up yeah

395
00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:02,709
we all haven't any contact with the

396
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:04,660
outside world because the Syrians came

397
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:07,690
down harder many hundreds thousands of

398
00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:09,220
years ago and told us were from the star

399
00:16:15,329 --> 00:16:11,950
people I mean to me it's almost like

400
00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:15,339
they they have to pound on the same nail

401
00:16:19,980 --> 00:16:17,950
because it does seem to be the best nail

402
00:16:23,449 --> 00:16:19,990
at the moment it's the Occam's razor

403
00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:23,459
kind of thing it's the simplest most

404
00:16:29,310 --> 00:16:26,769
parsimonious answer to the question of

405
00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:29,320
what was the inspiration for these

406
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:33,660
ancient cultures to look up into be

407
00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:38,050
fascinated with the Stars and star gods

408
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:40,870
and all the rest of that I so I'd kind

409
00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:43,570
of say that and I'd also defend the show

410
00:16:49,259 --> 00:16:47,500
in that Deadliest Catch yes for a while

411
00:16:53,069 --> 00:16:49,269
but if you look at what the show has

412
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:53,079
done recently in the last couple years I

413
00:16:56,610 --> 00:16:54,730
got to take my hat off to him I think

414
00:16:59,699 --> 00:16:56,620
they've done a fantastic job their show

415
00:17:01,680 --> 00:16:59,709
on AI and on advanced technologies I

416
00:17:04,770 --> 00:17:01,690
thought was fantastic I think their

417
00:17:07,069 --> 00:17:04,780
shows where our buddy there has gone out

418
00:17:10,919 --> 00:17:07,079
on the road what's his name zu colas or

419
00:17:13,710 --> 00:17:10,929
George George yet George are my Greek

420
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:13,720
compadre there you know I think his is

421
00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:17,049
it's very very great you know you're

422
00:17:19,710 --> 00:17:18,040
getting him out there on the road

423
00:17:22,169 --> 00:17:19,720
talking to people it's no longer the

424
00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:22,179
blue-screen he's down feet on the ground

425
00:17:27,449 --> 00:17:24,760
kind of doing stuff we never would have

426
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:27,459
imagined I don't think that we would

427
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:31,090
have this kind of mainstreaming of these

428
00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:36,370
ideas so um I'm a big cheerleader go go

429
00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:39,040
go you know well

430
00:17:45,090 --> 00:17:43,780
fair enough okay I'm not I did write a

431
00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:45,100
whole book about it I don't think it's

432
00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:48,430
the best explanation we shall we shall

433
00:17:55,650 --> 00:17:51,790
we shall return to that because you know

434
00:17:59,360 --> 00:17:55,660
best explanation well let's let's stop

435
00:18:03,510 --> 00:17:59,370
right there what is a better explanation

436
00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:03,520
today given the data we have and you

437
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:06,760
can't default to Jacques Vallee because

438
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:09,610
that's not really an explanation it's

439
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:12,450
just a call to broaden the

440
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:16,930
interpretation possibilities so that

441
00:18:22,050 --> 00:18:18,310
when you talk about the similarity

442
00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:22,060
between pyramids if you include good and

443
00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:23,380
Padang in that which is in the book and

444
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:26,910
I think you should you're dealing with a

445
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:31,600
pyramid building project that is that

446
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:33,310
happened multiple times over about

447
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:36,490
between 15 and 20 thousand years so if

448
00:18:40,650 --> 00:18:38,080
they're the inspiration for it how many

449
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:40,660
times did they come down and where are

450
00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:44,770
they there is a better there is there

451
00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:49,260
has to be a better understanding of what

452
00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:52,990
human interaction with off-planet is

453
00:18:57,690 --> 00:18:55,960
that allows for these kind of ideas to

454
00:19:01,550 --> 00:18:57,700
occur over time because they absolutely

455
00:19:03,570 --> 00:19:01,560
do and it doesn't necessarily require

456
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:03,580
physical Syrians

457
00:19:08,850 --> 00:19:06,310
landing in West Africa and talking to

458
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:08,860
the Dogon when we have no evidence of

459
00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:11,230
that but we do absolutely have evidence

460
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:16,270
for telepathy and you know distant like

461
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:20,050
nonverbal communication when we do these

462
00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:21,910
kind of things so the Syrians don't

463
00:19:25,860 --> 00:19:24,550
actually need to get here to tell us

464
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:25,870
this stuff and what if it's the actual

465
00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:27,610
stars themselves like this is coming

466
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:30,550
back to dr. Sheldrake right when he if

467
00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:32,170
he asked like the implications which

468
00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:33,790
neither is like this but it's it's a

469
00:19:37,380 --> 00:19:35,680
great way of describing it the

470
00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:37,390
implications of Pam psychism is if the

471
00:19:41,310 --> 00:19:39,400
Sun has some form of consciousness now

472
00:19:43,860 --> 00:19:41,320
neither is appendicitis for very good

473
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:43,870
reasons but that's what I mean like

474
00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:45,730
rather than having something for which

475
00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:48,070
we have no evidence we do have evidence

476
00:19:52,370 --> 00:19:51,160
for these Psychopaths --'tis and it

477
00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:52,380
seems like that's a better place

478
00:19:55,010 --> 00:19:53,580
to start with it was sort of the whole

479
00:19:58,790 --> 00:19:55,020
point of the book rather than having

480
00:20:02,630 --> 00:19:58,800
aliens keeps showing up that's I just

481
00:20:05,870 --> 00:20:02,640
wonder if I agreed like this is the cool

482
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:05,880
thing about talking with you and having

483
00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:07,290
this kind of exchange because I feel

484
00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:09,390
like we can immediately go to the kind

485
00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:10,950
of what I was called a level 3 kind of

486
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:13,320
thing beyond you know oh this can't

487
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:14,370
possibly be true

488
00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:16,350
beyond the beat back at the skeptics

489
00:20:21,530 --> 00:20:19,320
beyond oh yes tell me please tell me the

490
00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:21,540
answer and just hash out you know the

491
00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:25,100
real disagreements and that de screamin

492
00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:26,940
that's really what we're talking about

493
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:29,030
so I interviewed guy just recently a

494
00:20:32,780 --> 00:20:31,410
fantastic interview because I love when

495
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:32,790
these interviews going totally different

496
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:34,410
directions than I anticipated

497
00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:37,050
so the guy's name is Steve Briggs and I

498
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:39,900
know him through my friend Rick art read

499
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:41,520
but at the gas pump because they both

500
00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:43,770
for 20 years were following around

501
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:46,830
Maharishi and doing whatever he said in

502
00:20:51,470 --> 00:20:49,710
the TM movement and for 20 years this

503
00:20:54,850 --> 00:20:51,480
guy was training some of the top

504
00:20:56,810 --> 00:20:54,860
corporate leaders in India on

505
00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:56,820
Transcendental Meditation and then

506
00:21:00,170 --> 00:20:58,410
meditation techniques in his highly

507
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:00,180
advanced and he's meditating for seven

508
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:02,010
eight hours a day and except when he

509
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:03,090
goes on retreats and then he's at

510
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,740
meditating for 20 hours a day for long

511
00:21:07,630 --> 00:21:06,240
periods of time and he's traveling

512
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:07,640
through India and he's meeting these

513
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:10,110
unbelievable sages and mystics and he

514
00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:13,500
meets one and the guy says his he

515
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:15,480
describes him as just beautiful

516
00:21:20,030 --> 00:21:18,690
beautiful man like like features are

517
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:20,040
beautiful but he also has this glow

518
00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:21,570
about him and he goes to talk to this

519
00:21:27,170 --> 00:21:23,670
guy and the guy says yeah you know I'm

520
00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:27,180
like 105 thousand years old or whatever

521
00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:29,460
the hell these crazy Indian stories are

522
00:21:33,620 --> 00:21:30,870
but then he gives them some really

523
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:33,630
practical advice he says look here's

524
00:21:36,170 --> 00:21:34,710
what you can do to improve your

525
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:36,180
meditation practice and you've already

526
00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:37,770
been meditating for 20 years but you're

527
00:21:41,630 --> 00:21:39,540
so pretty far along but you can just do

528
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:41,640
these simple things and the next thing

529
00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:44,940
he does is write what you were saying he

530
00:21:49,580 --> 00:21:46,860
says and here's how you can astral

531
00:21:54,010 --> 00:21:49,590
travel an astral travel better in here

532
00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:54,020
how you can gather your internal

533
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:57,510
energies and travel so he travels and he

534
00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:00,720
travels to Syria to the Syrian star

535
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,660
system and he meets so this is the

536
00:22:06,269 --> 00:22:05,520
interview right so I'm hearing this guy

537
00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:06,279
and first let me

538
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:09,820
say the this guy is kind of like a very

539
00:22:16,339 --> 00:22:12,960
conventional guy in a lot of ways NBA

540
00:22:18,989 --> 00:22:16,349
tennis X you know played tennis at a

541
00:22:21,299 --> 00:22:18,999
national level in college threw for a

542
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:21,309
scholarship that's when he had his first

543
00:22:26,879 --> 00:22:24,190
spiritual slash psychic experience was

544
00:22:28,049 --> 00:22:26,889
on the tennis court when you know it's

545
00:22:31,739 --> 00:22:28,059
kind of the Michael Jordan effect

546
00:22:34,169 --> 00:22:31,749
everything slows down and I can see the

547
00:22:35,789 --> 00:22:34,179
tennis ball boom boom boom and he's like

548
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:35,799
14 years old when this happens and he

549
00:22:40,169 --> 00:22:37,330
wins the match and he's like nationally

550
00:22:41,459 --> 00:22:40,179
ranked and all this stuff so again there

551
00:22:43,259 --> 00:22:41,469
are all these elements to the story that

552
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:43,269
tie us to a reality that we can all

553
00:22:48,479 --> 00:22:45,849
accept and now he's gonna tell you he

554
00:22:50,579 --> 00:22:48,489
travels to the Syrian star system and

555
00:22:51,479 --> 00:22:50,589
now the story gets even Wilder because

556
00:22:52,769 --> 00:22:51,489
he said they have all these different

557
00:22:55,229 --> 00:22:52,779
planets they all these different

558
00:22:58,159 --> 00:22:55,239
technologies and his explanation just to

559
00:23:03,599 --> 00:22:58,169
throw this on the table for the

560
00:23:06,930 --> 00:23:03,609
starships for the UFOs is they're like

561
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:06,940
why not yeah we could we can and do show

562
00:23:13,409 --> 00:23:11,200
up psychically but it's fun we show up

563
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:13,419
in starships sometimes too and that's

564
00:23:16,859 --> 00:23:15,039
the way we do it and why wouldn't we do

565
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:16,869
it and we like interacting and you know

566
00:23:22,919 --> 00:23:20,320
the whole thing so it's trippy but it's

567
00:23:26,219 --> 00:23:22,929
like in another way I've thought about

568
00:23:31,589 --> 00:23:26,229
that many times since it's like that's a

569
00:23:33,779 --> 00:23:31,599
very [\h__\h] reason I love it I'm here

570
00:23:36,539 --> 00:23:33,789
for it I think that's great like that's

571
00:23:39,629 --> 00:23:36,549
that's not that far from what I kind of

572
00:23:42,979 --> 00:23:39,639
think is going on absolutely which is

573
00:23:45,659 --> 00:23:42,989
you're right you're right that is not

574
00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:45,669
contradictory to what you're saying it's

575
00:23:50,219 --> 00:23:48,070
again taking the interpretation part of

576
00:23:51,509 --> 00:23:50,229
the formula and saying you know we're

577
00:23:53,219 --> 00:23:51,519
talking about an interpretation well we

578
00:23:55,289 --> 00:23:53,229
can really kind of wad that up into a

579
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:55,299
ball and throw it into a wastebasket too

580
00:23:58,529 --> 00:23:57,369
because all bets are off we gotta turbit

581
00:24:01,109 --> 00:23:58,539
it just about every way you could

582
00:24:02,489 --> 00:24:01,119
imagine and and this guy I haven't

583
00:24:04,259 --> 00:24:02,499
listened to that show I've been you know

584
00:24:09,149 --> 00:24:04,269
as you can see I've been out and about

585
00:24:11,459 --> 00:24:09,159
I'm fleeing bush fires but I I don't see

586
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:11,469
what he described isn't that far from

587
00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:13,570
what I just mean in starships about what

588
00:24:18,210 --> 00:24:15,220
I actually think is going on like in the

589
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:18,220
universe like that that level of purpose

590
00:24:22,740 --> 00:24:19,810
of interaction

591
00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:22,750
is like why the [\h__\h] not like that

592
00:24:26,940 --> 00:24:25,390
relationality I think is what's going on

593
00:24:28,620 --> 00:24:26,950
I think that's what's going on spirits

594
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:28,630
aliens whatever you want to call it I

595
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:30,250
think it's just if you've ever been

596
00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:32,890
scuba diving and you see different you

597
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:34,660
know fish species and other organisms

598
00:24:37,770 --> 00:24:36,220
that are in there they're all just kind

599
00:24:39,630 --> 00:24:37,780
of like checking each other out like

600
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:39,640
what else is there to do like we exist

601
00:24:45,930 --> 00:24:42,490
let's interact and I think that is good

602
00:24:48,090 --> 00:24:45,940
you know that is somewhat of a lead-in

603
00:24:52,530 --> 00:24:48,100
to the next topic that I was going to

604
00:24:55,740 --> 00:24:52,540
toss on the proverbial table being at

605
00:24:58,620 --> 00:24:55,750
the PowerPoint screen here because it is

606
00:25:02,070 --> 00:24:58,630
a perfect lead-in isn't it to magic and

607
00:25:03,810 --> 00:25:02,080
to how we might understand the extended

608
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:03,820
consciousness realms and what's going on

609
00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:05,440
there because there's all this confusion

610
00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:07,840
and like you and I were talking but sit

611
00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:10,270
on air or was it not wonder saying you

612
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:12,220
know throw a little sage or burn a

613
00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:13,660
little sage and throw a little salt on

614
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:15,430
the ground and I don't know it just

615
00:25:20,910 --> 00:25:17,530
seems to work over and over again and

616
00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:20,920
you know why not and and then how far do

617
00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:22,840
you want to go with the why not thing

618
00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:25,540
but the larger question if I could pull

619
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:28,030
back without totally confusing everyone

620
00:25:37,290 --> 00:25:32,490
as I want to apply this data versus

621
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:37,300
interpretation meme to magic because I

622
00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:39,730
think the challenge is as I was just

623
00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:42,700
kind of stumbling through is we get so

624
00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:46,600
many different sources of data depending

625
00:25:51,270 --> 00:25:49,180
on where we look for magic whether we

626
00:25:53,610 --> 00:25:51,280
look in Christianity which is a point

627
00:25:57,060 --> 00:25:53,620
that you've always made I think quite

628
00:25:59,280 --> 00:25:57,070
eloquently and in a way that kind of

629
00:26:01,230 --> 00:25:59,290
jolts people into a realization that

630
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:01,240
they have to have this broader

631
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:04,530
understanding at least of what our

632
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:06,730
connection to this extended

633
00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:09,370
consciousness magic realm is but then

634
00:26:17,010 --> 00:26:13,630
let me step back and any initial

635
00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:17,020
thoughts on data interpretation as it

636
00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:22,900
applies to magic its definition was I've

637
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:24,070
always wanted to ask you what your

638
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:25,570
definition of an extended consciousness

639
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:30,970
is first start it's yes bingo no I you

640
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:33,570
may roll over and play dead

641
00:26:39,410 --> 00:26:36,570
hmm because I think that is an

642
00:26:41,090 --> 00:26:39,420
indication and the other one is and you

643
00:26:43,540 --> 00:26:41,100
learn this like talking about dr. hunter

644
00:26:45,980 --> 00:26:43,550
for instance mutual friend Jack hunter

645
00:26:48,590 --> 00:26:45,990
when you look at some of the things that

646
00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:48,600
are available like separating data and

647
00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:51,630
interpretation or theory and practice is

648
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:52,620
itself a practice

649
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:55,380
so what disciplines like anthropology

650
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:57,210
have sort of worked out over the last

651
00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:00,720
thirty years is that even if we try to

652
00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:02,760
split it as experiment and then results

653
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:05,100
or data generation and interpretation as

654
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:07,910
two separate things they are in fact one

655
00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:11,090
continuous process they are in fact a

656
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:14,520
behavior that Western is coming out of

657
00:27:18,860 --> 00:27:17,010
an empirical mindset do and when we want

658
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:18,870
to start doing comparison and this is

659
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:20,610
what the anthropologists did we dropped

660
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:22,650
down to that level and realize we are a

661
00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:25,410
we are a kind of continuously embodying

662
00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:27,630
or from an embodiment or bodied

663
00:27:33,850 --> 00:27:30,420
perspective this is how we organize the

664
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:33,860
world and it's at that level that we

665
00:27:40,190 --> 00:27:38,610
approach non-empirical cultures because

666
00:27:41,870 --> 00:27:40,200
they're kind of going along this

667
00:27:44,060 --> 00:27:41,880
organizing and interpreting of the world

668
00:27:45,290 --> 00:27:44,070
slits into visions of things like data

669
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:45,300
and interpretations well they look very

670
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:47,310
different if we drop if we jump up to a

671
00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:49,410
level where we try to look at their data

672
00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:50,820
and then interpret it we actually

673
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:52,470
haven't but out of their own heads to do

674
00:27:57,740 --> 00:27:55,350
it so an extended consciousness we need

675
00:27:59,270 --> 00:27:57,750
to define magic we'd need to define and

676
00:28:01,640 --> 00:27:59,280
we'd also just need to hang a lamp on

677
00:28:03,710 --> 00:28:01,650
the fact that when we split things like

678
00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:03,720
this and we try to look cross-culturally

679
00:28:09,290 --> 00:28:05,820
a minute kind of jeff kraebel comparison

680
00:28:12,050 --> 00:28:09,300
mode we have to be really careful that

681
00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:12,060
as we do it we aren't actually just

682
00:28:17,870 --> 00:28:16,140
still being Cartesian as we jump into

683
00:28:20,450 --> 00:28:17,880
non Cartesian cultures because it just

684
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:20,460
breaks on impact when you do it so that

685
00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:22,590
would be where I begin with it if we

686
00:28:27,260 --> 00:28:25,860
want to define magic I always define it

687
00:28:29,420 --> 00:28:27,270
this way and I think it's the kind of

688
00:28:32,270 --> 00:28:29,430
best opening gambit it's it's a culture

689
00:28:35,050 --> 00:28:32,280
specific way of describing the side

690
00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:35,060
capacities of a human at least so

691
00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:38,220
because the the powers that magic has is

692
00:28:41,780 --> 00:28:39,900
conserved across culture and we have

693
00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:41,790
them and this is the dr. Aden stuff

694
00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:43,800
right like and we have observed them in

695
00:28:47,419 --> 00:28:46,620
an empirical fashion to both yours in my

696
00:28:50,060 --> 00:28:47,429
satisfaction

697
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:50,070
that they exist so over the last hundred

698
00:28:56,749 --> 00:28:54,210
and twenty years how they how they

699
00:28:59,810 --> 00:28:56,759
present and how they are experienced and

700
00:29:01,159 --> 00:28:59,820
embodied outside of our culture is very

701
00:29:02,779 --> 00:29:01,169
different around the world but that's

702
00:29:05,959 --> 00:29:02,789
that's kind of what I mean like we're

703
00:29:08,060 --> 00:29:05,969
it's so fraught on the first it's

704
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:08,070
actually easy it's actually a really

705
00:29:11,749 --> 00:29:09,690
easy step to get okay so we're gonna

706
00:29:12,979 --> 00:29:11,759
jump down here I get that and then all

707
00:29:13,959 --> 00:29:12,989
of a sudden leads these kind of

708
00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:13,969
cross-cultural

709
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:16,289
relational activities like the Syrians

710
00:29:23,479 --> 00:29:19,919
and the humans just why not for the [\h__\h]

711
00:29:27,409 --> 00:29:23,489
of it become available to us in a way

712
00:29:29,149 --> 00:29:27,419
that he's an extractive or damaging so

713
00:29:30,859 --> 00:29:29,159
it's actually really really easy but

714
00:29:32,749 --> 00:29:30,869
it's so easy that we sometimes miss it

715
00:29:34,999 --> 00:29:32,759
and that's what I really really like

716
00:29:36,829 --> 00:29:35,009
about what's happened in anthropology in

717
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:36,839
the last couple decades that they've had

718
00:29:42,919 --> 00:29:40,559
they had further to go in in getting

719
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:42,929
that right because Anthropologie's of

720
00:29:47,209 --> 00:29:44,460
course the disappointment has literal

721
00:29:49,009 --> 00:29:47,219
skeletons in its closet in in Amsterdam

722
00:29:50,810 --> 00:29:49,019
and London and Chicago that they have to

723
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:50,820
kind of sheepishly give back to like the

724
00:29:54,169 --> 00:29:52,320
Mallory and the other originals and

725
00:29:55,999 --> 00:29:54,179
whatever so they have actual skeletons

726
00:29:57,709 --> 00:29:56,009
and so they've done a lot more that

727
00:29:59,690 --> 00:29:57,719
soul-searching work and there are some

728
00:30:03,190 --> 00:29:59,700
really good techniques about how we do

729
00:30:06,109 --> 00:30:03,200
this relationality that I think have

730
00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:06,119
tremendous use when it comes to the kind

731
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:08,580
of stuff we do in our shows which is

732
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:10,710
that what can we learn from what life

733
00:30:15,259 --> 00:30:12,450
ways are interacting with us and what

734
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:15,269
does that mean for our life ways oh oh

735
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:17,369
so cool it's so awesome there's so many

736
00:30:21,529 --> 00:30:19,710
things to pull apart there and I always

737
00:30:24,019 --> 00:30:21,539
want to kind of jump right in with the

738
00:30:26,209 --> 00:30:24,029
adversarial kind of point and why not

739
00:30:28,609 --> 00:30:26,219
that's my nature I love what you're

740
00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:28,619
saying on so many levels and let's start

741
00:30:33,859 --> 00:30:31,529
with the extended non extended so

742
00:30:36,469 --> 00:30:33,869
spot-on but your point is super well

743
00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:36,479
taken and if anyone missed it the idea

744
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:37,950
is that I think you're trying to get

745
00:30:44,299 --> 00:30:41,570
across is we can't really talk about

746
00:30:48,919 --> 00:30:44,309
extended consciousness realms without

747
00:30:51,499 --> 00:30:48,929
defining what the consciousness realm in

748
00:30:54,889 --> 00:30:51,509
its entirety is we can't start putting

749
00:30:57,979 --> 00:30:54,899
these arbitrary dividers up especially

750
00:31:00,109 --> 00:30:57,989
when those dividers wind up being brick

751
00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:00,119
walls that are 20 feet high that no one

752
00:31:02,450 --> 00:31:00,660
is allowed

753
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:02,460
to jump over unless they have certain

754
00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:05,190
academic credentials or some other

755
00:31:10,550 --> 00:31:07,230
credential like you're the super shaman

756
00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:10,560
that where is the beaded feathered cap

757
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:12,630
on then you can jump over but no one

758
00:31:17,060 --> 00:31:14,490
else can and neither one of us kind of

759
00:31:20,060 --> 00:31:17,070
like those kind of limitations I would

760
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:20,070
suggest that I punch back a little bit

761
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:23,490
that the the definition that you give of

762
00:31:29,870 --> 00:31:27,840
the magic has the same limitations when

763
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:29,880
we talk about psyche psyche ape

764
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:31,890
abilities because in the same way let me

765
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:34,410
start defining what is Sai and we start

766
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:36,510
differentiating it from our everyday

767
00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:39,810
experience in some ways that makes sense

768
00:31:45,020 --> 00:31:42,600
and we can understand it but in other

769
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:45,030
very ordinary ways we come to understand

770
00:31:50,150 --> 00:31:47,250
that there is no separation so

771
00:31:52,130 --> 00:31:50,160
absolutely that's absolutely correct so

772
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:52,140
I start with that as a definition

773
00:31:56,210 --> 00:31:54,330
because it's like landing coordinates to

774
00:31:59,180 --> 00:31:56,220
to situate the discussion if you

775
00:32:00,980 --> 00:31:59,190
actually look at say Eduardo cones work

776
00:32:04,910 --> 00:32:00,990
in a marvelous book called how first

777
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:04,920
thing we need to situate that we need to

778
00:32:08,510 --> 00:32:07,290
shock ourselves and it's just fade in

779
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:08,520
there it's a difference between extended

780
00:32:13,070 --> 00:32:10,650
a nun extended I know that you don't

781
00:32:16,250 --> 00:32:13,080
actually have when you stop to think

782
00:32:18,550 --> 00:32:16,260
about it a model that allows for some

783
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:18,560
sort of artificial divide between

784
00:32:21,890 --> 00:32:20,490
consciousness is experienced when you're

785
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:21,900
at the supermarket and when you're

786
00:32:27,130 --> 00:32:24,570
astral traveling it's it's a it's

787
00:32:29,930 --> 00:32:27,140
consciousness it is what it is right so

788
00:32:31,850 --> 00:32:29,940
if you start with this eye thing you can

789
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:31,860
situate yourself a going okay this is in

790
00:32:38,270 --> 00:32:34,890
fact how far this way of being in the

791
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:38,280
world can sort of extend and once you go

792
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:40,610
to non enlightenment cultures and

793
00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:43,410
experience their life ways and kind of

794
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:44,670
compare them to your own and in that

795
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:46,710
sort of cry per desk way you find that

796
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:48,810
there is no difference between the dream

797
00:32:54,530 --> 00:32:51,330
realm and the spirit realm and and all

798
00:32:58,010 --> 00:32:54,540
and so their model of how their flow

799
00:33:00,560 --> 00:32:58,020
model of how reality works has a much

800
00:33:02,390 --> 00:33:00,570
look clean is the wrong word is the

801
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:02,400
wrong word and you're going to get

802
00:33:05,870 --> 00:33:04,590
coming up that you're gonna keep coming

803
00:33:08,990 --> 00:33:05,880
up with the wrong word

804
00:33:10,790 --> 00:33:09,000
and that's one of my my concerns when we

805
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:10,800
look at you know I've thrown up on the

806
00:33:14,639 --> 00:33:11,890
screen

807
00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:14,649
a slide from mom I just favorite movies

808
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:16,750
of all time embrace of the serpent

809
00:33:22,350 --> 00:33:18,490
because I think it captures this

810
00:33:25,710 --> 00:33:22,360
interplay between these two different

811
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:25,720
magicians the one magician who is the

812
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:28,570
evil colonist that comes and chops

813
00:33:33,389 --> 00:33:30,340
people's arms off when they don't

814
00:33:36,029 --> 00:33:33,399
produce enough rubber but he is truly a

815
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:36,039
magician and his ability to wield that

816
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:39,970
hatchet in this most unbelievably wicked

817
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:44,049
way is eventually in this movie we're

818
00:33:48,750 --> 00:33:45,970
not sure whether that conquers or

819
00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:48,760
defeats the magic of the shaman who I

820
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:50,500
thought they did an awesome job of

821
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:53,289
portraying as being truly lost and truly

822
00:33:56,789 --> 00:33:55,120
challenged by his beliefs because

823
00:33:58,980 --> 00:33:56,799
everything he thought he knew about how

824
00:34:00,899 --> 00:33:58,990
the world works has now been called into

825
00:34:02,669 --> 00:34:00,909
question by these guys they just come in

826
00:34:04,919 --> 00:34:02,679
with their [\h__\h] hatchets and just

827
00:34:07,379 --> 00:34:04,929
chop people's arms off but at the same

828
00:34:10,490 --> 00:34:07,389
time were introduced to this shamanic

829
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:10,500
way of knowing in being in the world

830
00:34:17,129 --> 00:34:14,530
that that pulls us apart in another way

831
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:17,139
and let me digress into a short story

832
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:19,810
because I had a fascinating interview

833
00:34:27,329 --> 00:34:25,810
with a woman who approached me on to do

834
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:27,339
a skeptical show and you know that is

835
00:34:32,990 --> 00:34:28,720
when people approach you and you're

836
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:33,000
always like oh yeah fantastic fantastic

837
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:36,879
damn it Daniel I'll change them so so

838
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:39,970
you know Jan is has a book store in

839
00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:43,119
Seattle and this Russian guy comes and

840
00:34:47,550 --> 00:34:45,550
says hey I've been working with these

841
00:34:50,369 --> 00:34:47,560
people the old Shay people the original

842
00:34:55,619 --> 00:34:50,379
shamans in this remotest of remote area

843
00:34:58,829 --> 00:34:55,629
of Russia and here they are and I'd love

844
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:58,839
to do a talk does it talk and subsequent

845
00:35:05,690 --> 00:35:00,640
to that for the next 20 years brings

846
00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:05,700
over these shaman leaders mainly women

847
00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:08,320
just so happens to be but one or two men

848
00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:11,500
and they come and so you know the the

849
00:35:15,060 --> 00:35:13,630
way I kind of titled that the way I

850
00:35:18,450 --> 00:35:15,070
really kind of poked Jan and she's

851
00:35:19,950 --> 00:35:18,460
awesome awesome researcher and woman but

852
00:35:22,140 --> 00:35:19,960
you know where's your [\h__\h] iPhone

853
00:35:24,450 --> 00:35:22,150
shaman you know where's your [\h__\h]

854
00:35:25,620 --> 00:35:24,460
iPhone and I thought her pushback was

855
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:25,630
just awesome

856
00:35:28,799 --> 00:35:27,730
- and she's like yeah you know that's a

857
00:35:30,779 --> 00:35:28,809
that's a good point

858
00:35:33,299 --> 00:35:30,789
so they they do not have that and they

859
00:35:35,220 --> 00:35:33,309
like coming over to Washington and being

860
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:35,230
able to order Chinese food and have it

861
00:35:39,509 --> 00:35:37,089
show up at the door they think oh yeah

862
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:39,519
absolutely fantastic she says but I

863
00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:41,200
still struggle with understanding how

864
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:45,160
when we were in a locked room and inside

865
00:35:50,730 --> 00:35:48,160
hiding from weather elements of

866
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:50,740
Washington they made the wind blow all

867
00:35:55,710 --> 00:35:53,890
the papers in the room around in a big

868
00:35:58,650 --> 00:35:55,720
circle or how we could go out in nature

869
00:36:01,950 --> 00:35:58,660
and they could make animals come up to

870
00:36:06,359 --> 00:36:01,960
us just like they were in a petting zoo

871
00:36:08,309 --> 00:36:06,369
just out of the forest so how do we how

872
00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:08,319
do we interpret that how do I'm really

873
00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:10,900
glad you asked because my response is I

874
00:36:17,849 --> 00:36:15,910
think better you were correct that in

875
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:17,859
you know amongst a Siberian shamanic

876
00:36:22,499 --> 00:36:20,200
culture they do not have a government

877
00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:22,509
surveillant device that causes cancer

878
00:36:29,069 --> 00:36:27,220
it's made suicide lave like that so and

879
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:29,079
they use these devices I'll tell you

880
00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:30,609
mine you can even story in a minute but

881
00:36:35,370 --> 00:36:33,190
my I guess question back to the question

882
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:35,380
would be how come your iPhone can't call

883
00:36:43,259 --> 00:36:40,420
serious yet yeah but how come it can't

884
00:36:45,359 --> 00:36:43,269
so like this device contacts people how

885
00:36:46,980 --> 00:36:45,369
far can it get and how many towers does

886
00:36:48,839 --> 00:36:46,990
it need because I can talk to serious

887
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:48,849
not me personally but that would be the

888
00:36:57,210 --> 00:36:52,930
pushback and so if you situate and this

889
00:37:01,349 --> 00:36:57,220
coming back to the idea of what level we

890
00:37:03,930 --> 00:37:01,359
do cross-cultural comparison on and if

891
00:37:07,099 --> 00:37:03,940
we do it in a flow model Italy which is

892
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:07,109
why these sort of devices can be

893
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:10,930
joyously absorbed into the life ways of

894
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:13,839
say you know non-western culture because

895
00:37:18,779 --> 00:37:16,569
if you approach your no honor this is a

896
00:37:21,269 --> 00:37:18,789
thing that Western culture did as it's

897
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:21,279
going along then at that level you can

898
00:37:24,539 --> 00:37:22,930
look at them and I absolutely agree the

899
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:24,549
sort of technology share that would

900
00:37:29,609 --> 00:37:27,730
happen prior to shall we say the

901
00:37:32,819 --> 00:37:29,619
Industrial Revolution may bike arguably

902
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,829
prior to the rise of cities happen like

903
00:37:35,490 --> 00:37:34,240
we have the archaeological urban so you

904
00:37:38,690 --> 00:37:35,500
make a better bastard or you make a

905
00:37:41,180 --> 00:37:38,700
better bowl like that sort of thing

906
00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:41,190
do techniques like meditation move

907
00:37:46,490 --> 00:37:43,830
because they're they work better and so

908
00:37:49,220 --> 00:37:46,500
my my father grew up in New Guinea and

909
00:37:51,350 --> 00:37:49,230
my aunt is actually New Guinean and so

910
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:51,360
he kind of has an understanding of where

911
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:55,110
a good understanding of where different

912
00:37:59,540 --> 00:37:56,700
things from a quote-unquote Western

913
00:38:01,100 --> 00:37:59,550
culture can be useful and helpful in

914
00:38:03,020 --> 00:38:01,110
non-western sense so every time we

915
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:03,030
growing up we'd go to the islands every

916
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,760
year because he missed it and we he'd

917
00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:07,440
sort of we'd get to Sydney and he'd go

918
00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:09,660
into like a tourist tat store and he'd

919
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:11,700
buy a whole bunch of like $5 like I

920
00:38:16,010 --> 00:38:14,490
harvest rainy t-shirts and he'd take

921
00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:16,020
their many take hats and you take thongs

922
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:18,390
and we go and visit different you know

923
00:38:21,260 --> 00:38:19,950
outlying communities and whatever and

924
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:21,270
nothing like a weird Christian way like

925
00:38:24,740 --> 00:38:22,650
we were there Holiday Inn let's be clear

926
00:38:27,350 --> 00:38:24,750
we're not saving anything but it's just

927
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:27,360
he knew that we are in their lives and

928
00:38:30,830 --> 00:38:29,370
we bring things and they [\h__\h] love

929
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:30,840
them like we would come back a couple of

930
00:38:35,090 --> 00:38:32,640
years later and they're still wearing

931
00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:35,100
the shirts because they don't they don't

932
00:38:39,110 --> 00:38:36,660
have them they're not in Sydney you know

933
00:38:41,150 --> 00:38:39,120
they don't have this stuff and it's a

934
00:38:43,460 --> 00:38:41,160
really good this is fin from a policy

935
00:38:45,650 --> 00:38:43,470
perspective something that Brazil worked

936
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:45,660
out not now they're in a quite bad way

937
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:47,970
politically but a few decades ago when

938
00:38:53,330 --> 00:38:49,890
it was you trying to net navigate what

939
00:38:56,060 --> 00:38:53,340
how far at what arm's length

940
00:38:57,650 --> 00:38:56,070
do you quote-unquote hold native

941
00:38:59,660 --> 00:38:57,660
Brazilians living in the Amazon because

942
00:39:01,460 --> 00:38:59,670
if they well how racist is it to keep

943
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:01,470
them in a pristine state where they're

944
00:39:05,810 --> 00:39:02,910
all there without shoes and in

945
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:05,820
loincloths in an area revolt with deadly

946
00:39:10,910 --> 00:39:08,880
snakes saying God give me some juice and

947
00:39:13,730 --> 00:39:10,920
some shoes would be great right now and

948
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:13,740
I think that is when we talk about

949
00:39:20,180 --> 00:39:18,180
technology share and and and how I don't

950
00:39:22,370 --> 00:39:20,190
even like you were better but like how

951
00:39:25,130 --> 00:39:22,380
ideas that have some utility across

952
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:25,140
culture move the iPhone is a good

953
00:39:30,980 --> 00:39:29,460
example but so is meditation so is the

954
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:30,990
use of ayahuasca for contacting spirits

955
00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:34,170
these are things they took totally but

956
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,880
let me let me jump

957
00:39:38,750 --> 00:39:37,440
leapfrog this a little bit because what

958
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:38,760
I'm really going and I can't usually

959
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:42,530
jump that far ahead with folks is I'm

960
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:46,320
worried about interested in concerned

961
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:51,910
with ET and et's ability to marshal tech

962
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:54,490
analogy in this forgive the term

963
00:39:57,390 --> 00:39:56,170
extended consciousness realm but I got

964
00:39:59,279 --> 00:39:57,400
to keep using it because people know

965
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:59,289
what it means as opposed to UFOs

966
00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:01,119
diverses aerial phenomena or whatever

967
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:03,640
they're going to call it so when we when

968
00:40:10,319 --> 00:40:07,630
we hear what et is doing in terms of

969
00:40:13,349 --> 00:40:10,329
screen memory in terms of philip

970
00:40:18,319 --> 00:40:13,359
telepathic communication in terms of

971
00:40:21,089 --> 00:40:18,329
long-term surveillance and potentially

972
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:21,099
counterfeited spiritual experiences

973
00:40:25,950 --> 00:40:23,680
where people come back and say oh I've

974
00:40:28,109 --> 00:40:25,960
had this incredible spiritual awakening

975
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:28,119
I've had this healing and another person

976
00:40:32,849 --> 00:40:30,160
comes back goes really all's I did is I

977
00:40:36,210 --> 00:40:32,859
[\h__\h] by a reptilian you know it's like

978
00:40:40,410 --> 00:40:36,220
well where is the spiritual transfer can

979
00:40:45,359 --> 00:40:40,420
be I guess but so when I look at that

980
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:45,369
that makes me look at the shamanic noble

981
00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:48,010
savage kind of thing halo that we can do

982
00:40:52,799 --> 00:40:50,440
that isn't like you said arms-length

983
00:40:56,099 --> 00:40:52,809
kind of thing might not be the right

984
00:40:58,980 --> 00:40:56,109
approach either so I just wonder how

985
00:41:02,010 --> 00:40:58,990
we're supposed to figure that [\h__\h] out

986
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:02,020
and I'm not worried about being racist

987
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:05,049
and I'm not worrying about fair I'm just

988
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:07,510
worrying about trying to understand it

989
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:11,710
in that favoring one over another in a

990
00:41:16,799 --> 00:41:13,930
way that is going to cloud my ability to

991
00:41:20,099 --> 00:41:16,809
interpret what might really be going on

992
00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:20,109
and how much of this magic thing might

993
00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:23,680
be linked to a technology that we don't

994
00:41:29,010 --> 00:41:26,230
fully understand and when we do

995
00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:29,020
understand it you will have an app to

996
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:33,220
talk to the Syria well I I don't so so

997
00:41:37,410 --> 00:41:35,770
many things there that I think we

998
00:41:39,269 --> 00:41:37,420
actually need to pivot more to there

999
00:41:40,740 --> 00:41:39,279
understand we start here instead because

1000
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:40,750
I was just up at a conference speaking

1001
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:43,690
about UFOs and contactees and talking to

1002
00:41:47,579 --> 00:41:45,520
the Pleiadians and all that really kind

1003
00:41:48,809 --> 00:41:47,589
of like boomer stuff and I gave a

1004
00:41:51,059 --> 00:41:48,819
presentation called whether for the

1005
00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:51,069
aliens but I'll tell you present Asian

1006
00:41:54,799 --> 00:41:53,230
was what called what if we're the aliens

1007
00:41:57,690 --> 00:41:54,809
and it's advanced for me to talk right

1008
00:42:00,000 --> 00:41:57,700
but I'll tell you that I haven't you

1009
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:00,010
know spoken to a number of demons they

1010
00:42:02,940 --> 00:42:01,510
will fade out say yeah which are like

1011
00:42:04,740 --> 00:42:02,950
people like they think they're talking

1012
00:42:07,820 --> 00:42:04,750
to the

1013
00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:07,830
like Federation that's us [\h__\h]

1014
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:11,020
now the argument then is in fact for

1015
00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:13,570
more magic not less because where's your

1016
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:16,180
[\h__\h] iPhone is the opposite when you

1017
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:18,870
go to cultures that never lost this

1018
00:42:24,270 --> 00:42:22,330
weary extra-dimensional diplomacy

1019
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:24,280
component with the majority of shamanic

1020
00:42:30,030 --> 00:42:27,070
practice isn't happy healing stuff it

1021
00:42:32,370 --> 00:42:30,040
was keeping bad [\h__\h] away from the

1022
00:42:35,940 --> 00:42:32,380
[\h__\h] village the techniques for

1023
00:42:38,670 --> 00:42:35,950
navigating the fact that the the spirit

1024
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:38,680
world isn't sometimes deceptive but it

1025
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:41,200
is certainly never presented as as

1026
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:43,090
factual like it what you see is never

1027
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:45,250
what you get in the spirit world and you

1028
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:47,530
have cultures that have millennia of

1029
00:42:52,830 --> 00:42:49,960
experience of navigating that and we

1030
00:42:54,810 --> 00:42:52,840
have an iPhone so I would argue that in

1031
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:54,820
fact we need more of it rather than less

1032
00:42:59,730 --> 00:42:57,040
and the notion that any kind of contact

1033
00:43:01,440 --> 00:42:59,740
experience is automatically a good one

1034
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:01,450
like oh look at me and I've had a

1035
00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:04,480
spiritual experience is a very Western

1036
00:43:10,170 --> 00:43:08,110
post Christian idea right visited by an

1037
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:10,180
angel or whatever like that kind of

1038
00:43:14,670 --> 00:43:12,130
contact is quite Neoplatonic

1039
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:14,680
the idea that oh look if something

1040
00:43:19,710 --> 00:43:16,810
happened to me I'm interacting with the

1041
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:19,720
star but you won't find that level of

1042
00:43:26,370 --> 00:43:22,570
optimism you will find a weariness and

1043
00:43:29,790 --> 00:43:26,380
and a hard-won cynicism in cultures that

1044
00:43:31,650 --> 00:43:29,800
just know better from more experience of

1045
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:31,660
the spirit world and their like it might

1046
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:33,370
be that it might be something else and

1047
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:38,050
magic is frankly better at and I can

1048
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:39,910
even shrink that down to Western magic

1049
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:44,410
is better at navigating the the reality

1050
00:43:48,990 --> 00:43:45,970
that this is a deceptive and enigmatic

1051
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:49,000
process because it has those fail-safes

1052
00:43:54,270 --> 00:43:51,370
built into it and we live in it within

1053
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:54,280
animistic cultures when you say once we

1054
00:43:58,350 --> 00:43:56,170
learn fully what magic is about you

1055
00:44:00,960 --> 00:43:58,360
never will that you kind of have an open

1056
00:44:03,630 --> 00:44:00,970
cosmology that is hyper pragmatic

1057
00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:03,640
because you admit and understand that

1058
00:44:08,310 --> 00:44:05,950
you will never fully know what's going

1059
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:08,320
on but you nevertheless have to be in

1060
00:44:12,270 --> 00:44:09,970
the world and interact so like what

1061
00:44:14,580 --> 00:44:12,280
techniques what what ways of being in

1062
00:44:16,890 --> 00:44:14,590
the world kind of work in this sort of

1063
00:44:17,819 --> 00:44:16,900
getting along together way so I would oh

1064
00:44:19,259 --> 00:44:17,829
that's all

1065
00:44:21,449 --> 00:44:19,269
problems right I mean you will

1066
00:44:25,259 --> 00:44:21,459
acknowledge it that is with the same

1067
00:44:28,589 --> 00:44:25,269
problems that you're trying to kind of

1068
00:44:30,839 --> 00:44:28,599
get past or overcome right so no I would

1069
00:44:33,150 --> 00:44:30,849
disagree I would because you want you

1070
00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:33,160
item is amiss and ontology I'm looking

1071
00:44:37,289 --> 00:44:35,680
for an epistemology so I know that this

1072
00:44:38,819 --> 00:44:37,299
the the rise of magic is that what

1073
00:44:41,519 --> 00:44:38,829
irritated you over the last year and I'm

1074
00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:41,529
sorry to bring a bad news that it still

1075
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:43,529
has much further to run than Dean Radin

1076
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:45,910
but what I'm looking for is an

1077
00:44:50,459 --> 00:44:47,890
epistemology and you're worried that it

1078
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:50,469
will replace your ontology you're

1079
00:44:58,499 --> 00:44:54,450
worried not totally so I I fully agree

1080
00:45:02,299 --> 00:44:58,509
with the point about you know more is

1081
00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:02,309
better in this case right so a more

1082
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:05,940
include more expansive understanding of

1083
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:09,930
those modalities for interacting with

1084
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:12,400
but you know we're always gonna be

1085
00:45:16,019 --> 00:45:14,170
struggling with words in this discussion

1086
00:45:17,279 --> 00:45:16,029
this kind of inside baseball level three

1087
00:45:18,690 --> 00:45:17,289
discussion because as soon as you start

1088
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:18,700
talking about spirits we don't know what

1089
00:45:22,949 --> 00:45:21,130
the [\h__\h] spirit is no more than we

1090
00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:22,959
know what consciousness is it's all part

1091
00:45:28,229 --> 00:45:24,759
of the same blob that we're pulling

1092
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:28,239
apart but here I would try and circle

1093
00:45:32,370 --> 00:45:29,650
this back to my point because I'm really

1094
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:32,380
interested in getting your your insight

1095
00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:34,690
on this because it's fantastic but did

1096
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:37,390
you listen to our friend Greg Carl woods

1097
00:45:42,180 --> 00:45:38,890
excellent interview with whitley

1098
00:45:43,589 --> 00:45:42,190
strieber if it was in the last month or

1099
00:45:45,029 --> 00:45:43,599
so because I've been traveling him in

1100
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:45,039
Fame which phase I'm behind in

1101
00:45:49,229 --> 00:45:47,380
everything I'm afraid so I hadn't I

1102
00:45:50,999 --> 00:45:49,239
don't know how far back it was but it

1103
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:51,009
was it was quite extraordinary and it

1104
00:45:56,009 --> 00:45:53,170
was extraordinary particularly at this

1105
00:45:59,370 --> 00:45:56,019
one moment when Whitley's talking about

1106
00:46:02,400 --> 00:45:59,380
being I don't want to say abducted cuz

1107
00:46:05,189 --> 00:46:02,410
he wasn't he was voluntarily admitted by

1108
00:46:08,759 --> 00:46:05,199
his parents in this special youth

1109
00:46:11,489 --> 00:46:08,769
program and at an Air Force Base in San

1110
00:46:14,939 --> 00:46:11,499
Antonio where these kids were subjected

1111
00:46:17,579 --> 00:46:14,949
to just a horrible kind of a skinner

1112
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:17,589
cage you know you walk in to the to the

1113
00:46:22,589 --> 00:46:19,839
facility and these kids did and just to

1114
00:46:24,449 --> 00:46:22,599
digress slightly streamer says I can

1115
00:46:27,029 --> 00:46:24,459
hardly believe that this happened except

1116
00:46:28,220 --> 00:46:27,039
I found two other boys who were with me

1117
00:46:30,410 --> 00:46:28,230
and one boy who

1118
00:46:31,940 --> 00:46:30,420
wasn't because his parents when they

1119
00:46:33,650 --> 00:46:31,950
came and told them about the special

1120
00:46:36,770 --> 00:46:33,660
program for gifted children in the

1121
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:36,780
Skinner box as in BF Skinner said get

1122
00:46:38,870 --> 00:46:38,130
the hell away from my house and don't

1123
00:46:41,150 --> 00:46:38,880
come back

1124
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:41,160
but his parents weren't so inclined or

1125
00:46:45,590 --> 00:46:43,770
his parents were part of it whatever

1126
00:46:48,770 --> 00:46:45,600
Sousa thinking he was dressed up in his

1127
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:48,780
Sunday best every week in order to go to

1128
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:51,119
this camp when we first goes in on the

1129
00:46:54,770 --> 00:46:53,250
Air Force Base there's these kids locked

1130
00:46:57,050 --> 00:46:54,780
in these little cages and they said

1131
00:46:59,900 --> 00:46:57,060
that's what happens to children who tell

1132
00:47:02,780 --> 00:46:59,910
their parents what happens and it turns

1133
00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:02,790
out that the purpose of this exercise as

1134
00:47:08,090 --> 00:47:04,470
near as he could tell it I should say

1135
00:47:12,349 --> 00:47:08,100
exercise this torture this MKULTRA

1136
00:47:14,930 --> 00:47:12,359
program is to break these people open to

1137
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:14,940
break these souls open in order to

1138
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:18,450
access this extended consciousness realm

1139
00:47:23,090 --> 00:47:20,850
and once we do this investigation like

1140
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:23,100
you and I have we say totally

1141
00:47:28,010 --> 00:47:25,770
understandable I mean in the shamanic

1142
00:47:30,410 --> 00:47:28,020
traditions many of them have similar

1143
00:47:35,330 --> 00:47:30,420
kind of it's not not that they're not

1144
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:35,340
culturally understood to be torturous

1145
00:47:39,770 --> 00:47:37,710
they're understood to be rites of

1146
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:39,780
passage whether it's a sweat lodge or

1147
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:41,130
whether it's some other kind of

1148
00:47:43,790 --> 00:47:42,810
experience of being stung by bees but

1149
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:43,800
that would be kind of in a different

1150
00:47:50,570 --> 00:47:46,310
thing but anyways the point is the same

1151
00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:50,580
that is the technology that I guess I'm

1152
00:47:54,109 --> 00:47:51,540
talking about

1153
00:47:57,740 --> 00:47:54,119
because certainly those folks in the Air

1154
00:48:02,330 --> 00:47:57,750
Force the MKULTRA three-letter agency

1155
00:48:05,930 --> 00:48:02,340
they weren't doing this from a shamanic

1156
00:48:08,330 --> 00:48:05,940
or a magic perspective they were doing

1157
00:48:10,490 --> 00:48:08,340
it as near as we can tell is let's

1158
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:10,500
figure out how the [\h__\h] aliens do it

1159
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:13,530
and do it the same way because what I

1160
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:15,390
always point to is you know my friend

1161
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:17,730
grant Cameron and the famous will Burt

1162
00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:20,910
Smith we're right there it's written

1163
00:48:25,820 --> 00:48:23,609
down we've gone to the US we found that

1164
00:48:28,220 --> 00:48:25,830
the UFOs are real and the the mental

1165
00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:28,230
component of it is something they're

1166
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:30,660
very very interested in and this fits in

1167
00:48:35,810 --> 00:48:32,730
that timeframe let's see if we can break

1168
00:48:38,359 --> 00:48:35,820
people open in order so that we might

1169
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:38,369
perfect this technology and that's what

1170
00:48:43,470 --> 00:48:40,690
intrigues me Gordon is that

1171
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:43,480
what if there really is a technology

1172
00:48:50,099 --> 00:48:46,960
component to this and if you look

1173
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:50,109
stretched technology to mean it where we

1174
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:52,480
they can get to some level and in that

1175
00:48:58,740 --> 00:48:56,079
respect maybe we would look at the

1176
00:49:01,530 --> 00:48:58,750
shamanic and the magic traditions that

1177
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:01,540
you're talking about just in a different

1178
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:05,440
perspective not worse better but you

1179
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:07,930
know kind of the different perspective

1180
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:10,450
in terms of how developed they are and

1181
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:12,880
how efficacious they are at the desired

1182
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:16,510
result I would suspect that that again

1183
00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:18,130
is a definitional challenge like you

1184
00:49:20,819 --> 00:49:19,569
kind of landed on it towards the end

1185
00:49:22,829 --> 00:49:20,829
there where it's like well how do you

1186
00:49:24,359 --> 00:49:22,839
find technology and if you want to do

1187
00:49:27,059 --> 00:49:24,369
that comparison you kind of have to go

1188
00:49:28,980 --> 00:49:27,069
techne they go back to the ancient Greek

1189
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:28,990
and and I like to use words like

1190
00:49:35,339 --> 00:49:33,730
cultural complexity instead because it

1191
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:35,349
is not obvious to me although it's

1192
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:36,970
something entirely possible firstly all

1193
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:40,210
that Whitley stuff 100% like sure I'd

1194
00:49:45,569 --> 00:49:42,490
like that's that's one of the things

1195
00:49:48,420 --> 00:49:45,579
that is alarming I would just say before

1196
00:49:52,140 --> 00:49:48,430
we talk about the technology thing if we

1197
00:49:54,540 --> 00:49:52,150
are comparing the p.m. or for projects

1198
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:54,550
there of trying to weaponize these

1199
00:49:59,609 --> 00:49:57,280
capacities of these children that is

1200
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:59,619
kind of trying to break into the spirit

1201
00:50:04,020 --> 00:50:01,359
world whereas typically and the word

1202
00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:04,030
shaman is is culturally bound we all

1203
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:05,470
know that right now we're talking about

1204
00:50:09,870 --> 00:50:07,810
what you will find in cultures that have

1205
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:09,880
this as a function within it is that the

1206
00:50:13,950 --> 00:50:11,920
spirits choose them so you don't you

1207
00:50:15,870 --> 00:50:13,960
don't torture or the children in a tribe

1208
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:15,880
you find the ones that the spirit of

1209
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:17,890
picked and no unfortunately for you my

1210
00:50:23,309 --> 00:50:20,890
little son or daughter your lung can

1211
00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:23,319
have a very good life you get to be the

1212
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:27,670
shaman and that's that truly or horrible

1213
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:29,170
and god only knows what they found with

1214
00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:31,510
these these projects but it's it's kind

1215
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:34,030
of a it's a military assault on the

1216
00:50:38,819 --> 00:50:35,890
spirit world so if we want to kind of

1217
00:50:42,630 --> 00:50:38,829
compare these two that's that's worth

1218
00:50:45,059 --> 00:50:42,640
thinking with as to what what I think

1219
00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:45,069
you're getting at is has it already

1220
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:45,760
happened

1221
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:50,170
or will we one day somewhere in an

1222
00:50:59,310 --> 00:50:56,940
a machine that can bodily move you into

1223
00:51:00,690 --> 00:50:59,320
the spirit world or teleport you via you

1224
00:51:02,490 --> 00:51:00,700
know spirit tunnels whatever you want to

1225
00:51:06,870 --> 00:51:02,500
call them to like other points in the

1226
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:06,880
galaxy can will a will the underground

1227
00:51:13,050 --> 00:51:10,480
base's have a military version of some

1228
00:51:14,250 --> 00:51:13,060
of the capacities we find in cultures

1229
00:51:15,870 --> 00:51:14,260
that never lost magic

1230
00:51:17,070 --> 00:51:15,880
well then because that's one question

1231
00:51:18,420 --> 00:51:17,080
but here's the second question that I

1232
00:51:19,980 --> 00:51:18,430
want you to answer at the same time I

1233
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:19,990
want to use your term cultural

1234
00:51:26,730 --> 00:51:23,200
complexity and I want to suggest is it

1235
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:26,740
possible that et has a cultural

1236
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:29,770
complexity that includes a mastery of

1237
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:33,370
some of this stuff this extended

1238
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:36,240
consciousness stuff that makes our

1239
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:39,310
understanding of shamanic cultures as

1240
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:43,210
well as magic traditions look like that

1241
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:46,000
photo that I have up on the screen of

1242
00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:49,200
the nearly naked

1243
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,420
Amazonian people who we admire in some

1244
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:54,480
respects but in other ways go you know

1245
00:52:00,000 --> 00:51:57,490
here's your compass go fight your way to

1246
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:00,010
go to their River and there's a boat on

1247
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:01,510
there with a motor in it it's a lot

1248
00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:05,680
easier I think what what happens is you

1249
00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:09,880
kind of get to that end point of where

1250
00:52:13,230 --> 00:52:11,830
does technology so one of the other

1251
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,240
things Whitley said which I liked is

1252
00:52:18,270 --> 00:52:15,760
that advanced civilizations elsewhere in

1253
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:18,280
the galaxy have presumably developed a

1254
00:52:24,210 --> 00:52:20,890
way to maintain continuous communication

1255
00:52:25,710 --> 00:52:24,220
after death so that the death toll and

1256
00:52:27,690 --> 00:52:25,720
we would have been close honestly I

1257
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:27,700
think if we if spiritualism in the

1258
00:52:31,260 --> 00:52:29,170
mid-1800s had gone in a different

1259
00:52:33,570 --> 00:52:31,270
direction from a policy perspective we

1260
00:52:35,940 --> 00:52:33,580
may well have been there and that rather

1261
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:35,950
changes it's not even a technological

1262
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:37,570
solve at that point what that means is

1263
00:52:41,370 --> 00:52:39,310
that you are you are fully you're

1264
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:41,380
operating in the full universe rather

1265
00:52:45,390 --> 00:52:44,110
than the component of it that you can

1266
00:52:48,350 --> 00:52:45,400
perceive while you're still in a meat

1267
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:48,360
suit right and so when you talk about a

1268
00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:51,010
technology that relies on shall we say

1269
00:52:54,420 --> 00:52:52,900
like the physics of magic or the fact

1270
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:54,430
that the universe is magic and a

1271
00:52:59,310 --> 00:52:57,520
technology built on that you're still in

1272
00:53:00,930 --> 00:52:59,320
a universe that's magic so you kind of

1273
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:00,940
get to this end point we go okay so a

1274
00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:02,290
civilization that can maintain

1275
00:53:05,970 --> 00:53:04,270
continuous communication beyond death

1276
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:05,980
and and can do instantaneous

1277
00:53:11,299 --> 00:53:08,400
interplanetary transport and so on

1278
00:53:15,529 --> 00:53:11,309
those things can only work because the

1279
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:15,539
universe is magical is you know I'm

1280
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:16,680
using that term but you know what I mean

1281
00:53:21,019 --> 00:53:18,450
like we live in any animate whether it's

1282
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:21,029
consciousness universe so yes and no

1283
00:53:24,349 --> 00:53:23,130
what I would say back and I know this

1284
00:53:25,849 --> 00:53:24,359
has happened to you as well but in

1285
00:53:27,769 --> 00:53:25,859
certainly happen to me having on my

1286
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:27,779
travels to various like you know sacred

1287
00:53:32,809 --> 00:53:30,240
sites and weird places and being amongst

1288
00:53:35,809 --> 00:53:32,819
like tribal fetish objects and all this

1289
00:53:38,599 --> 00:53:35,819
kind of stuff is that a rock can do that

1290
00:53:40,730 --> 00:53:38,609
if you go to say Marie Laveau's to in

1291
00:53:42,349 --> 00:53:40,740
New Orleans as you walk up to it your

1292
00:53:45,259 --> 00:53:42,359
blood pressure drops and it's a tomb

1293
00:53:47,779 --> 00:53:45,269
it's just it's from that level of

1294
00:53:50,210 --> 00:53:47,789
reality that the technology can be built

1295
00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:50,220
and who's to say it has it remember

1296
00:53:55,220 --> 00:53:52,200
you've had guests on that can astral

1297
00:53:59,059 --> 00:53:55,230
travel like so who's to say it hasn't I

1298
00:54:01,549 --> 00:53:59,069
agree with you that you just end up with

1299
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:01,559
this kind of infinite or vanishing point

1300
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:03,599
where we might do it on a mechanistic

1301
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,910
basis or we might do it on an animistic

1302
00:54:11,059 --> 00:54:07,920
basis but you'll still end up at this

1303
00:54:13,519 --> 00:54:11,069
point the realization that you are in an

1304
00:54:17,569 --> 00:54:13,529
animate magic all consciousness universe

1305
00:54:20,390 --> 00:54:17,579
whatever will will occur and that's kind

1306
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:20,400
of where I'm like I'm not sure are you

1307
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:21,119
yeah

1308
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:23,730
and are there entities in the galaxy

1309
00:54:30,140 --> 00:54:27,359
that have consciousness ray guns for

1310
00:54:33,079 --> 00:54:30,150
whatever I don't know you know an

1311
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:33,089
example do they have do they have red

1312
00:54:38,479 --> 00:54:35,190
iPhone that calls the devil at it like

1313
00:54:40,729 --> 00:54:38,489
yeah probably because you know the the

1314
00:54:42,109 --> 00:54:40,739
UFO contact experience especially when

1315
00:54:44,479 --> 00:54:42,119
you get to things like screen memory and

1316
00:54:46,009 --> 00:54:44,489
so on is a little alarming it's it's

1317
00:54:48,859 --> 00:54:46,019
there's no other question you know I

1318
00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:48,869
think that's worth thinking with you

1319
00:54:53,089 --> 00:54:51,599
know I could hammer on this on and on

1320
00:54:55,339 --> 00:54:53,099
that you've brought up so many great

1321
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:55,349
points I just think we're gonna lose

1322
00:54:59,450 --> 00:54:56,970
ourselves and the complexity of it but

1323
00:55:02,900 --> 00:54:59,460
awesome kind of discussion let's bring

1324
00:55:04,729 --> 00:55:02,910
it back to dr. demian yeah maybe more of

1325
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:04,739
a down-to-earth kind of discussion that

1326
00:55:08,839 --> 00:55:07,440
you and I have had offline and we'll

1327
00:55:13,309 --> 00:55:08,849
share as much as you feel comfortable

1328
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:13,319
with kind of online here but we both

1329
00:55:17,359 --> 00:55:14,970
interviewed dr. Dean Radin you did an

1330
00:55:19,609 --> 00:55:17,369
excellent interview with and then I kind

1331
00:55:21,860 --> 00:55:19,619
of was a little bit meaner to him but

1332
00:55:24,380 --> 00:55:21,870
still I appreciate it very much

1333
00:55:25,820 --> 00:55:24,390
and coming on and if I was mean to him

1334
00:55:29,210 --> 00:55:25,830
if I'm saying I was mean to him it's

1335
00:55:31,940 --> 00:55:29,220
because the vanishing point that you're

1336
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:31,950
talking about I think has to be on the

1337
00:55:37,550 --> 00:55:34,890
forefront of our mind as we walk down

1338
00:55:39,950 --> 00:55:37,560
this this path the vanishing point being

1339
00:55:43,850 --> 00:55:39,960
that we're going to reach hyperspace

1340
00:55:47,150 --> 00:55:43,860
when we realized that the shaman is no

1341
00:55:49,790 --> 00:55:47,160
different than the et in terms of their

1342
00:55:51,620 --> 00:55:49,800
ability to manipulate the extended

1343
00:55:55,580 --> 00:55:51,630
consciousness realm because it all

1344
00:55:59,780 --> 00:55:55,590
reaches some higher dimension that then

1345
00:56:01,670 --> 00:55:59,790
totally escapes what we can is beyond

1346
00:56:04,370 --> 00:56:01,680
our understanding and that's where the

1347
00:56:07,850 --> 00:56:04,380
action probably really begins and I just

1348
00:56:10,940 --> 00:56:07,860
wonder as awesome as Dean is and as

1349
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:10,950
important as his work is can he really

1350
00:56:15,470 --> 00:56:14,130
catch up to there given you know when

1351
00:56:17,630 --> 00:56:15,480
you talk to Dean he says you know to be

1352
00:56:19,940 --> 00:56:17,640
honest with you and I so appreciate his

1353
00:56:22,700 --> 00:56:19,950
honesty is I didn't even think of the

1354
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:22,710
term spirit seriously until a year ago

1355
00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:26,490
and if he is on the Vanguard and for

1356
00:56:31,970 --> 00:56:29,760
God's sakes he is on the Vanguard but if

1357
00:56:35,390 --> 00:56:31,980
he is on the if he is on the edge of

1358
00:56:38,380 --> 00:56:35,400
this does science really has science in

1359
00:56:41,390 --> 00:56:38,390
this sense have a chance of catching up

1360
00:56:42,980 --> 00:56:41,400
um this is where maybe I would swap that

1361
00:56:45,020 --> 00:56:42,990
out again to just be a bit more precise

1362
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:45,030
and say empiricism and I think Dean has

1363
00:56:49,990 --> 00:56:47,010
got this right like empiricism is

1364
00:56:52,970 --> 00:56:50,000
fascinating because my definition of it

1365
00:56:55,430 --> 00:56:52,980
and it's a good one philosophically is

1366
00:56:57,920 --> 00:56:55,440
that empiricism is the notion that

1367
00:57:00,200 --> 00:56:57,930
nothing exists outside of sense data and

1368
00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:00,210
and scientific results are a subset of

1369
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:02,160
sense data because you perceive the

1370
00:57:08,780 --> 00:57:04,410
results right and it invalidates itself

1371
00:57:10,190 --> 00:57:08,790
as a as a full explanation for the

1372
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:10,200
universe because the statement that

1373
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:12,960
nothing exists beyond sense data is a

1374
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:14,610
statement you make without the sense

1375
00:57:18,020 --> 00:57:16,650
data to support it you are making a

1376
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:18,030
statement about the universe that

1377
00:57:23,180 --> 00:57:20,810
nothing exists that I can't perceive now

1378
00:57:26,330 --> 00:57:23,190
that but once you realize that

1379
00:57:27,770 --> 00:57:26,340
empiricism becomes exceptionally useful

1380
00:57:29,930 --> 00:57:27,780
because you've made it the right size

1381
00:57:32,270 --> 00:57:29,940
and this is how we can do things like

1382
00:57:35,749 --> 00:57:32,280
archeology and whatever and I think Dean

1383
00:57:40,269 --> 00:57:35,759
is absolutely nailed it by the in

1384
00:57:45,349 --> 00:57:40,279
last book by taking the empirical

1385
00:57:47,029 --> 00:57:45,359
exploration of magic and hanumant

1386
00:57:51,859 --> 00:57:47,039
universe the reality of say whatever you

1387
00:57:54,799 --> 00:57:51,869
want to as far as it can and I think he

1388
00:57:57,079 --> 00:57:54,809
was really good with us both at holding

1389
00:57:58,999 --> 00:57:57,089
the line I think he's like this is

1390
00:58:01,009 --> 00:57:59,009
literally all we can get here but this

1391
00:58:03,229 --> 00:58:01,019
is all that this can show us that

1392
00:58:06,039 --> 00:58:03,239
doesn't mean that's all is there in the

1393
00:58:08,299 --> 00:58:06,049
world so I really like the Dean and

1394
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:08,309
maybe it's his kind of cosmic function

1395
00:58:11,659 --> 00:58:09,839
in the world I really like the Dean

1396
00:58:13,759 --> 00:58:11,669
holds that light because like I asked if

1397
00:58:16,579 --> 00:58:13,769
it's true it's true for especially this

1398
00:58:20,209 --> 00:58:16,589
is real skeptical stuff right like it's

1399
00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:20,219
true that the data cannot I mean to our

1400
00:58:24,979 --> 00:58:22,049
satisfaction sure can i definitively

1401
00:58:26,539 --> 00:58:24,989
land on the existence of an afterlife or

1402
00:58:29,959 --> 00:58:26,549
spirits or anything that stuff because

1403
00:58:31,969 --> 00:58:29,969
you can't perceive it because it this is

1404
00:58:33,439 --> 00:58:31,979
how big empiricism is it's one circle

1405
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:33,449
and this stuff is outside of it and

1406
00:58:38,689 --> 00:58:36,089
whilst we all agree like the data uproot

1407
00:58:42,139 --> 00:58:38,699
like it's just that we can't use this

1408
00:58:43,819 --> 00:58:42,149
one technique to conclusively land on it

1409
00:58:45,379 --> 00:58:43,829
doesn't mean it doesn't exist it means

1410
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:45,389
like it in fact it's a really good

1411
00:58:48,649 --> 00:58:47,130
argument like empiricism is completely

1412
00:58:50,749 --> 00:58:48,659
filled up with like this this stuff is

1413
00:58:53,509 --> 00:58:50,759
real but we need other techniques we

1414
00:58:55,759 --> 00:58:53,519
need other epistemology is hence why I'm

1415
00:58:58,759 --> 00:58:55,769
interested in that rather than ontology

1416
00:59:01,339 --> 00:58:58,769
to be able to go ok well then where do

1417
00:59:04,339 --> 00:59:01,349
we what other means of truth validation

1418
00:59:07,429 --> 00:59:04,349
exists for us outside of empiricism and

1419
00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:07,439
so I loved both those interviews and

1420
00:59:11,719 --> 00:59:09,089
he's to be congratulated because we all

1421
00:59:14,209 --> 00:59:11,729
agree like it's it's a pretty good case

1422
00:59:15,919 --> 00:59:14,219
that you know the spirit world exists

1423
00:59:19,569 --> 00:59:15,929
and life continues after death but you

1424
00:59:21,769 --> 00:59:19,579
cannot get to it with an empirical model

1425
00:59:23,749 --> 00:59:21,779
conclusively you can get to something is

1426
00:59:26,059 --> 00:59:23,759
going on and it was so good of him to

1427
00:59:28,759 --> 00:59:26,069
kind of go no I will not be drawn

1428
00:59:31,189 --> 00:59:28,769
outside of it and I'm really happy he

1429
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:31,199
held that line and it leaves us to kind

1430
00:59:38,509 --> 00:59:34,799
of blur though in the way which is where

1431
00:59:42,919 --> 00:59:38,519
we belong we want you on that wall we

1432
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:42,929
need you on that wall but it's like it's

1433
00:59:47,689 --> 00:59:45,599
I mean it's so good he's just got such

1434
00:59:48,740 --> 00:59:47,699
the mind and the experience to go like I

1435
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:48,750
can't you

1436
00:59:54,380 --> 00:59:50,970
cannot design an experiment to

1437
00:59:58,640 --> 00:59:54,390
objectively demonstrate empirically you

1438
01:00:02,870 --> 00:59:58,650
can't design with you I'm with you and

1439
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:02,880
I'm totally 100% supportive of Abdeen I

1440
01:00:09,110 --> 01:00:06,690
love what you said about the magical

1441
01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:09,120
shrinking machine and that is the most

1442
01:00:14,540 --> 01:00:12,180
beautiful metaphor that I've heard my

1443
01:00:16,460 --> 01:00:14,550
problem is when I really step back and

1444
01:00:20,930 --> 01:00:16,470
want to be honest and not be so nice is

1445
01:00:24,710 --> 01:00:20,940
that you've now shrunk it down to where

1446
01:00:27,620 --> 01:00:24,720
it isn't that meaningful or important

1447
01:00:30,830 --> 01:00:27,630
science has now obsoleted itself in

1448
01:00:33,230 --> 01:00:30,840
terms of a larger investigation of who

1449
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:33,240
are we why are we here and you've just

1450
01:00:38,650 --> 01:00:35,310
relegated it to us a part of it

1451
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:38,660
it can help but the shrinking machine

1452
01:00:45,020 --> 01:00:42,330
you know can be a problem and it's very

1453
01:00:47,060 --> 01:00:45,030
specific about empiricism so empiricism

1454
01:00:50,450 --> 01:00:47,070
isn't science these are two different

1455
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:50,460
things science relies on empiricism

1456
01:00:58,370 --> 01:00:54,240
currently exclusively in which as a way

1457
01:01:01,330 --> 01:00:58,380
to as its exclusive epistemology it

1458
01:01:03,980 --> 01:01:01,340
relies on empiricism it doesn't need to

1459
01:01:07,490 --> 01:01:03,990
and and this is something that Western

1460
01:01:08,660 --> 01:01:07,500
philosophy which is hidden mists but one

1461
01:01:09,620 --> 01:01:08,670
of the things and comes back to what

1462
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:09,630
we're talking about there are other

1463
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:11,730
forms of proof that we have had

1464
01:01:14,690 --> 01:01:13,050
available to us for twenty five hundred

1465
01:01:17,390 --> 01:01:14,700
years we've had mathematical proofs

1466
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:17,400
we've had logical proofs we have had for

1467
01:01:21,950 --> 01:01:19,530
whatever they're worth hold on hold on I

1468
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:21,960
mean if Dean has helped us make any

1469
01:01:27,590 --> 01:01:24,810
change at all it's that the shade

1470
01:01:30,830 --> 01:01:27,600
casting that's been done on empiricism

1471
01:01:33,710 --> 01:01:30,840
is now flipped and what we can say now

1472
01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:33,720
is empiricism really is the only game in

1473
01:01:38,030 --> 01:01:35,310
town because all those other things

1474
01:01:39,860 --> 01:01:38,040
you're talking about aren't real we

1475
01:01:42,490 --> 01:01:39,870
can't really measure things

1476
01:01:45,620 --> 01:01:42,500
no but that's really we can't really do

1477
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:45,630
mathematics we really can't because it's

1478
01:01:50,180 --> 01:01:47,910
all an abstraction of something that we

1479
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:50,190
don't know what it really is the only

1480
01:01:55,610 --> 01:01:53,250
game so town is in Paris the only game

1481
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:55,620
is it's not you're using empiricism

1482
01:02:00,860 --> 01:01:57,690
which is an epistemology as an ontology

1483
01:02:01,989 --> 01:02:00,870
again and that's the error so there is

1484
01:02:04,359 --> 01:02:01,999
nothing and this

1485
01:02:07,929 --> 01:02:04,369
the kind of realization that happens

1486
01:02:09,639 --> 01:02:07,939
across disciplines nothing stops there

1487
01:02:12,849 --> 01:02:09,649
is nothing that can prevent you from

1488
01:02:16,449 --> 01:02:12,859
doing that baseline philosophical work

1489
01:02:18,789 --> 01:02:16,459
of what is reality empiricism is the

1490
01:02:21,189 --> 01:02:18,799
next level down and I don't think it

1491
01:02:23,529 --> 01:02:21,199
makes it I don't think it diminishes it

1492
01:02:26,169 --> 01:02:23,539
I think it restores it and makes it

1493
01:02:27,759 --> 01:02:26,179
useful again so that it's not designed

1494
01:02:29,859 --> 01:02:27,769
to be an ontology it's designed to be an

1495
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:29,869
epistemology and we keep using it as an

1496
01:02:35,379 --> 01:02:32,569
ontology and if you if you just let it

1497
01:02:36,849 --> 01:02:35,389
be what it is again yes you have to do

1498
01:02:39,759 --> 01:02:36,859
the hard work of going like well that's

1499
01:02:41,739 --> 01:02:39,769
one method of truth validation but

1500
01:02:43,689 --> 01:02:41,749
nevertheless Here I am as an organism or

1501
01:02:45,669 --> 01:02:43,699
consciousness or whatever in a universe

1502
01:02:47,409 --> 01:02:45,679
that has that capacity what can I learn

1503
01:02:49,059 --> 01:02:47,419
about and this is the Western

1504
01:02:51,699 --> 01:02:49,069
philosophical journey it's the eastern

1505
01:02:54,129 --> 01:02:51,709
one - in many respects is you nothing

1506
01:02:56,709 --> 01:02:54,139
can stop you there is no like oh look

1507
01:03:02,049 --> 01:02:56,719
done and I have empirically generated

1508
01:03:04,439 --> 01:03:02,059
data that solves a crucial thing that

1509
01:03:06,849 --> 01:03:04,449
every human has to do which is those

1510
01:03:09,629 --> 01:03:06,859
foundational philosophical principles or

1511
01:03:11,919 --> 01:03:09,639
work nothing prevents that and

1512
01:03:14,529 --> 01:03:11,929
empiricism turning it back into an

1513
01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:14,539
epistemology is tremendously useful on

1514
01:03:19,479 --> 01:03:17,599
that personal quest to do so so I don't

1515
01:03:22,479 --> 01:03:19,489
think I think it's the opposite I think

1516
01:03:24,279 --> 01:03:22,489
it's made it better rather than worse to

1517
01:03:27,939 --> 01:03:24,289
make it to just let it be what it was

1518
01:03:29,769 --> 01:03:27,949
initially yeah maybe I'll move on and

1519
01:03:31,989 --> 01:03:29,779
let it go and the next time we talk I'll

1520
01:03:35,469 --> 01:03:31,999
I'll ask you to finish that thought

1521
01:03:38,859 --> 01:03:35,479
about what ontology x' what maps of the

1522
01:03:40,719 --> 01:03:38,869
territory are really something that we

1523
01:03:42,789 --> 01:03:40,729
can that we can put up on the wall and

1524
01:03:44,829 --> 01:03:42,799
be proud of because I don't think I

1525
01:03:46,689 --> 01:03:44,839
don't think they exist but but I don't

1526
01:03:49,299 --> 01:03:46,699
think any of those other alternative

1527
01:03:54,579 --> 01:03:49,309
ontology is really kind of get a say but

1528
01:03:58,599 --> 01:03:54,589
I shut up and move on so here's a fun

1529
01:04:02,409 --> 01:03:58,609
one another chance to poke the bear or

1530
01:04:04,449 --> 01:04:02,419
poke the guest as it is in this case but

1531
01:04:07,179 --> 01:04:04,459
I think the data versus interpretation

1532
01:04:09,699 --> 01:04:07,189
thing with regard to social engineering

1533
01:04:12,519 --> 01:04:09,709
what some people call conspiracy which

1534
01:04:14,919 --> 01:04:12,529
is if there ever was a social

1535
01:04:15,730 --> 01:04:14,929
engineering of a term it's the social

1536
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:15,740
engineering of

1537
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:18,530
conspiracy that's conspiracy as opposed

1538
01:04:23,890 --> 01:04:21,890
to what it really is is 90 percent of

1539
01:04:26,350 --> 01:04:23,900
the time a social engineering project by

1540
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:26,360
someone by a government either our

1541
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:28,850
government or a foreign government or a

1542
01:04:34,450 --> 01:04:31,490
corporation or a shadow government or

1543
01:04:36,340 --> 01:04:34,460
somebody I think there's this data

1544
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:36,350
versus interpretation thing going on

1545
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:38,510
people get tired of me talking about the

1546
01:04:43,270 --> 01:04:40,850
Gloria Steinem example but I love it

1547
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:43,280
because still a lot of people it's

1548
01:04:47,590 --> 01:04:45,290
something we can touch and we can go and

1549
01:04:49,090 --> 01:04:47,600
actually put our finger on it's one of

1550
01:04:51,580 --> 01:04:49,100
the few times that one of the players

1551
01:04:54,100 --> 01:04:51,590
actually stands out is stupid enough to

1552
01:04:56,950 --> 01:04:54,110
stand outside and go well yeah I really

1553
01:05:00,460 --> 01:04:56,960
was a player in a social engineering

1554
01:05:04,180 --> 01:05:00,470
project and then we find out that she

1555
01:05:08,820 --> 01:05:04,190
not only was but still is so here's my

1556
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:08,830
poke at you to what extent is the

1557
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:14,570
current kind of neoliberal quasi proto

1558
01:05:21,220 --> 01:05:18,890
pseudo progressive divide a social

1559
01:05:23,980 --> 01:05:21,230
engineering project because it sure as

1560
01:05:26,530 --> 01:05:23,990
hell looks like one to me it looks like

1561
01:05:29,140 --> 01:05:26,540
another version I mean it took me seven

1562
01:05:31,210 --> 01:05:29,150
or eight years into skeptiko to realize

1563
01:05:34,030 --> 01:05:31,220
that biological robot in a meaningless

1564
01:05:36,820 --> 01:05:34,040
universe is not just a bunch of dumb

1565
01:05:41,530 --> 01:05:36,830
guys who haven't figured out an obvious

1566
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:41,540
kind of observation it is somehow social

1567
01:05:46,090 --> 01:05:43,730
engineering useful idiot you know isn't

1568
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:46,100
it better if we send things down this

1569
01:05:51,220 --> 01:05:48,410
path kind of thing and I always like the

1570
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:51,230
example you give of well look at the

1571
01:05:57,010 --> 01:05:54,050
frontier science done in the darkest

1572
01:05:59,650 --> 01:05:57,020
corners of those agencies that were way

1573
01:06:01,780 --> 01:05:59,660
past the materialistic model yeah a long

1574
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:01,790
time ago and I wonder if the same thing

1575
01:06:09,220 --> 01:06:04,570
isn't going on here so when we see these

1576
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:09,230
social movements it just to me smacks of

1577
01:06:16,570 --> 01:06:12,650
social engineering what thank you Gordon

1578
01:06:19,450 --> 01:06:16,580
I think some of it yes I think a lot of

1579
01:06:22,660 --> 01:06:19,460
it is inertia so I think we are still in

1580
01:06:25,780 --> 01:06:22,670
the after-effects of either successful

1581
01:06:28,750 --> 01:06:25,790
or abandoned 20th century technocratic

1582
01:06:33,310 --> 01:06:28,760
engineering ones so if you look at FEM

1583
01:06:36,100 --> 01:06:33,320
and I I don't know quite what Steinem

1584
01:06:38,500 --> 01:06:36,110
was for for the CIA

1585
01:06:41,770 --> 01:06:38,510
other than surveillance but I rather

1586
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:41,780
suspect it has to do I think they are

1587
01:06:46,570 --> 01:06:43,490
interested in whether feminism could be

1588
01:06:48,700 --> 01:06:46,580
used to reduce population I think I

1589
01:06:50,020 --> 01:06:48,710
think that might have been it because if

1590
01:06:51,790 --> 01:06:50,030
you look at the kind of 20th century

1591
01:06:55,090 --> 01:06:51,800
technocratic project one of the things

1592
01:06:58,000 --> 01:06:55,100
they were concerned about and it's it's

1593
01:06:58,780 --> 01:06:58,010
always the case I saw it like a lot of

1594
01:07:01,090 --> 01:06:58,790
things are concerned about is

1595
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:01,100
overpopulation so I'm not but here we

1596
01:07:07,830 --> 01:07:04,850
are in a in the inertia of a whole bunch

1597
01:07:11,530 --> 01:07:07,840
of different ups and projects from

1598
01:07:13,660 --> 01:07:11,540
Russian meddling to feminism to to all

1599
01:07:16,060 --> 01:07:13,670
the rest of it and we're kind of in this

1600
01:07:17,410 --> 01:07:16,070
car crash inevitable conclusion of what

1601
01:07:18,910 --> 01:07:17,420
happens because there was so much

1602
01:07:21,130 --> 01:07:18,920
inertia behind them even if they're not

1603
01:07:23,290 --> 01:07:21,140
running now we're still caught in the

1604
01:07:24,580 --> 01:07:23,300
tumble of it they're also as far as I

1605
01:07:29,140 --> 01:07:24,590
can tell looking the world in the last

1606
01:07:31,990 --> 01:07:29,150
few years there are more people private

1607
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:32,000
entities billionaires whatever you want

1608
01:07:36,580 --> 01:07:34,640
playing a game that used to pretty much

1609
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:36,590
have one player at least in the West

1610
01:07:40,380 --> 01:07:38,090
like during the Cold War we had one

1611
01:07:41,980 --> 01:07:40,390
player and whether it was because the

1612
01:07:45,190 --> 01:07:41,990
anglo-american alliance whatever you

1613
01:07:46,660 --> 01:07:45,200
want to call it and had the CIA and all

1614
01:07:48,700 --> 01:07:46,670
the rest of it well more or less aligned

1615
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:48,710
in what they wanted to achieve for the

1616
01:07:55,210 --> 01:07:51,290
West in the 20th century or not if you

1617
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:55,220
look at it now what isn't enough so I

1618
01:08:02,650 --> 01:07:57,770
think it's really we're in a kind of car

1619
01:08:04,540 --> 01:08:02,660
crash of current ups and the inertia of

1620
01:08:07,900 --> 01:08:04,550
historic ones and I think that's just

1621
01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:07,910
where we are and it's a mess you know

1622
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:10,190
one thing I'd kind of throw out there is

1623
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:14,570
an explanation of these ops number one I

1624
01:08:20,230 --> 01:08:17,930
always fall back on the reactive versus

1625
01:08:22,930 --> 01:08:20,240
proactive thing which is I think the

1626
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:22,940
first agenda is hey we have to have a

1627
01:08:28,930 --> 01:08:25,970
foot in the door we have to have a stake

1628
01:08:32,620 --> 01:08:28,940
in that game so yeah you go and you

1629
01:08:34,900 --> 01:08:32,630
co-opt or disrupt or infiltrate feminism

1630
01:08:36,550 --> 01:08:34,910
if for no other reason then we'll figure

1631
01:08:38,070 --> 01:08:36,560
out what the [\h__\h] to do with it later

1632
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:38,080
let's just make sure we have

1633
01:08:42,510 --> 01:08:40,930
we can play in that game and that's the

1634
01:08:42,930 --> 01:08:42,520
British Empire model that's absolutely

1635
01:08:45,060 --> 01:08:42,940
it

1636
01:08:48,900 --> 01:08:45,070
yeah yeah and I think that's that's

1637
01:08:51,750 --> 01:08:48,910
smart but I think if we were gonna if I

1638
01:08:54,510 --> 01:08:51,760
was going to venture a guess on what the

1639
01:08:58,650 --> 01:08:54,520
goal is I think the first goal always

1640
01:09:00,990 --> 01:08:58,660
since constantine has been control sure

1641
01:09:05,910 --> 01:09:01,000
because that's our job is is to control

1642
01:09:08,820 --> 01:09:05,920
and if we can pacify disrupt in in this

1643
01:09:11,570 --> 01:09:08,830
case when you look at feminism if we can

1644
01:09:15,090 --> 01:09:11,580
atomized the family if we can isolate

1645
01:09:18,480 --> 01:09:15,100
make people more alone afraid less

1646
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:18,490
connected then we're always better off

1647
01:09:23,340 --> 01:09:20,890
in terms of from a control standpoint

1648
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:23,350
yeah it's easier to control the sheep in

1649
01:09:28,860 --> 01:09:26,530
that way than it is in any other way and

1650
01:09:31,349 --> 01:09:28,870
that's my concern with like when I look

1651
01:09:33,329 --> 01:09:31,359
at like I have up there the first

1652
01:09:34,829 --> 01:09:33,339
transgender Muslim kind of thing because

1653
01:09:37,950 --> 01:09:34,839
some of these things are actually

1654
01:09:40,410 --> 01:09:37,960
bordering on the kind of comical and

1655
01:09:44,810 --> 01:09:40,420
it's the same thing in my opinion is

1656
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:44,820
like is there an issue in terms of

1657
01:09:51,020 --> 01:09:49,210
sexuality in terms of absolutely is

1658
01:09:54,540 --> 01:09:51,030
there an issue in terms of

1659
01:09:57,180 --> 01:09:54,550
transgenderism and and rights and

1660
01:09:58,740 --> 01:09:57,190
certain discretion certainly

1661
01:10:02,370 --> 01:09:58,750
discrimination that's obvious

1662
01:10:06,030 --> 01:10:02,380
absolutely is there an agenda that keeps

1663
01:10:07,890 --> 01:10:06,040
cropping up in terms of trans now finish

1664
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:07,900
that with whatever you want

1665
01:10:16,050 --> 01:10:12,330
you know transhumanism trans culture ISM

1666
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:16,060
trans-atlantic globalization I mean I

1667
01:10:23,310 --> 01:10:19,810
think there's a lot of things at play

1668
01:10:24,690 --> 01:10:23,320
there in terms of an agenda that seems

1669
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:24,700
to be playing out in a bunch of

1670
01:10:29,790 --> 01:10:26,730
different ways in this same way of

1671
01:10:32,940 --> 01:10:29,800
atomizing separating and ultimately

1672
01:10:36,510 --> 01:10:32,950
turning people into being more alone

1673
01:10:38,700 --> 01:10:36,520
afraid less connected and less spiritual

1674
01:10:41,670 --> 01:10:38,710
in whatever way we want to kind of

1675
01:10:42,570 --> 01:10:41,680
define that what do you think well well

1676
01:10:44,370 --> 01:10:42,580
that's kind of why I use the word

1677
01:10:45,780 --> 01:10:44,380
technocracy because I'll work backwards

1678
01:10:47,700 --> 01:10:45,790
because what you just said there is it's

1679
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:47,710
true although I don't focus here's the

1680
01:10:51,149 --> 01:10:49,570
thing the 20th century technocratic

1681
01:10:54,020 --> 01:10:51,159
project and you include all the P

1682
01:10:56,910 --> 01:10:54,030
like béarnaise that are that a part of

1683
01:10:58,590 --> 01:10:56,920
all of the 20th century development of

1684
01:11:01,709 --> 01:10:58,600
these capacities right so the

1685
01:11:05,970 --> 01:11:01,719
technocracy thought it fell to these

1686
01:11:08,910 --> 01:11:05,980
rich people to manage the development of

1687
01:11:11,220 --> 01:11:08,920
the world and the West for our benefit

1688
01:11:13,169 --> 01:11:11,230
right so it isn't even just necessarily

1689
01:11:15,450 --> 01:11:13,179
keeping them alone and afraid that is a

1690
01:11:18,290 --> 01:11:15,460
side effect of well we are the

1691
01:11:20,820 --> 01:11:18,300
technocratic running the world so our

1692
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:20,830
our competing narratives are here in the

1693
01:11:24,180 --> 01:11:22,570
church and here in the family and so on

1694
01:11:24,990 --> 01:11:24,190
and what we actually want because we're

1695
01:11:27,149 --> 01:11:25,000
all the doctors

1696
01:11:28,590 --> 01:11:27,159
where are the educators where all are

1697
01:11:30,270 --> 01:11:28,600
this kind of stuff you need to get it

1698
01:11:32,970 --> 01:11:30,280
from us and we will manage the society

1699
01:11:34,860 --> 01:11:32,980
and you will eat the right food and the

1700
01:11:36,930 --> 01:11:34,870
population will grow or not at the rate

1701
01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:36,940
that we determine the economy will work

1702
01:11:41,310 --> 01:11:39,280
where this is this is how this is the

1703
01:11:43,350 --> 01:11:41,320
the demonic goal so it's funny it's

1704
01:11:45,899 --> 01:11:43,360
where I wanted to start there on a human

1705
01:11:48,030 --> 01:11:45,909
level that's the kind of 20th century

1706
01:11:49,530 --> 01:11:48,040
idea I think they're shooting for it is

1707
01:11:51,060 --> 01:11:49,540
demonic like if you want to go to a

1708
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:51,070
higher level when you're talking about

1709
01:11:54,689 --> 01:11:52,570
what are the kind of metaphysical

1710
01:11:56,129 --> 01:11:54,699
implications I have no idea if any of

1711
01:11:58,800 --> 01:11:56,139
these people realize they are being

1712
01:12:00,810 --> 01:11:58,810
ridden by demons but nevertheless the

1713
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:00,820
goal of this kind of project is it is in

1714
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:04,000
some literal sense atactic when it comes

1715
01:12:07,950 --> 01:12:06,250
back to what I was saying before about a

1716
01:12:10,350 --> 01:12:07,960
car crash of different real and fake

1717
01:12:11,490 --> 01:12:10,360
things and an existing and historic

1718
01:12:13,530 --> 01:12:11,500
agendas and so on

1719
01:12:14,910 --> 01:12:13,540
it's a pity that the word trans is used

1720
01:12:17,490 --> 01:12:14,920
returns humanism and something like

1721
01:12:20,970 --> 01:12:17,500
trans rights because and trans-fats like

1722
01:12:23,129 --> 01:12:20,980
it's actually like it's and so we had

1723
01:12:24,540 --> 01:12:23,139
this listing where things get conflated

1724
01:12:30,169 --> 01:12:24,550
together and transhumanism

1725
01:12:35,790 --> 01:12:33,600
trans experiences and and kind of new

1726
01:12:38,340 --> 01:12:35,800
explore a explorations of gender and

1727
01:12:40,050 --> 01:12:38,350
gender expression and however they are

1728
01:12:41,879 --> 01:12:40,060
regularly weaponized and they're

1729
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:41,889
weaponized for intentional reasons and

1730
01:12:44,910 --> 01:12:43,690
also because missus because Connor comes

1731
01:12:46,530 --> 01:12:44,920
on the show a lot of kind of happy

1732
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:46,540
because of my show we talked about this

1733
01:12:51,540 --> 01:12:49,210
which is you typically find and

1734
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:51,550
obviously you typically find the

1735
01:12:57,060 --> 01:12:55,210
promotion of or the the defense of trans

1736
01:12:59,490 --> 01:12:57,070
rights and trans visibility on the

1737
01:13:01,860 --> 01:12:59,500
progressive end of the spectrum like

1738
01:13:03,870 --> 01:13:01,870
obviously that is also you guys have

1739
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:03,880
when you go it encapsulates I think

1740
01:13:07,439 --> 01:13:05,770
where you're going what's like how come

1741
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:07,449
trans people aren't allowed in the

1742
01:13:15,180 --> 01:13:13,360
military and you're like yeah it's great

1743
01:13:17,100 --> 01:13:15,190
just ban the rest of them now they but

1744
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:17,110
mostly it's because on the left where

1745
01:13:22,729 --> 01:13:19,690
you find and were you historically and

1746
01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:22,739
typically and rightly I guess finally

1747
01:13:26,550 --> 01:13:25,120
this promotion of the wrong word because

1748
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:26,560
it sounds like an agenda but let's just

1749
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:28,330
say the defense and the prioritization

1750
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:31,090
of things a trans rights you also get a

1751
01:13:35,070 --> 01:13:32,250
kind of idiotic

1752
01:13:37,020 --> 01:13:35,080
left materialism you you get the kind of

1753
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:37,030
Marxist reduction of everything back

1754
01:13:42,750 --> 01:13:40,330
into a materialist labor interaction

1755
01:13:44,850 --> 01:13:42,760
based on his you know observations of a

1756
01:13:47,180 --> 01:13:44,860
19th century industrial economy so you

1757
01:13:49,590 --> 01:13:47,190
have a definite weaponization of

1758
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:49,600
different manifestations of this you

1759
01:13:53,820 --> 01:13:51,370
have the part of it which is good which

1760
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:53,830
is you know people should be able to

1761
01:13:57,030 --> 01:13:55,360
[\h__\h] move how they want to live and

1762
01:13:59,820 --> 01:13:57,040
you also have the people who are trying

1763
01:14:01,760 --> 01:13:59,830
to help as far as I'm concerned aren't

1764
01:14:03,899 --> 01:14:01,770
helping in the right way because you see

1765
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:03,909
argument goes round and around on a

1766
01:14:07,830 --> 01:14:06,370
materialist basis because from a

1767
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:07,840
progressive perspective

1768
01:14:13,020 --> 01:14:10,570
magic for whenever a better word is is

1769
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:13,030
dirty it's it's dirty their Marxist

1770
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:16,719
don't like it the 20th century for us

1771
01:14:23,459 --> 01:14:21,610
was they rely on don't like it you can I

1772
01:14:26,189 --> 01:14:23,469
substitute spurge you say magic I

1773
01:14:28,530 --> 01:14:26,199
substitute spirituality saying if you

1774
01:14:31,410 --> 01:14:28,540
come at it from an atheistic perspective

1775
01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:31,420
it's all gobbly good within about two

1776
01:14:37,470 --> 01:14:35,110
sentences and unfortunately the the less

1777
01:14:39,629 --> 01:14:37,480
the left the progressive the neoliberal

1778
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:39,639
has married themselves to just a

1779
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:43,330
philosophical kind of non-starter nitwit

1780
01:14:49,709 --> 01:14:46,480
again biological robot kind of thing I

1781
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:49,719
never said yeah and I thought do you

1782
01:14:54,860 --> 01:14:51,280
have any thoughts on that third picture

1783
01:14:58,350 --> 01:14:54,870
down there I've just so many odds alone

1784
01:15:01,830 --> 01:14:58,360
too long and your buddy Peter Levin de

1785
01:15:06,709 --> 01:15:01,840
oh my god to me to me this is the most

1786
01:15:10,050 --> 01:15:06,719
clear example of a political role out

1787
01:15:12,750 --> 01:15:10,060
disclosure kind of thing that that is

1788
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:12,760
masked by again all this [\h__\h] of

1789
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:14,530
people talking about well did he did

1790
01:15:19,690 --> 01:15:16,130
they did they should they would they

1791
01:15:22,630 --> 01:15:19,700
it's a complete political disclosure

1792
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:22,640
rollout let's look at it as an operation

1793
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:25,610
and stop looking at it as a true

1794
01:15:30,010 --> 01:15:27,770
disclosure I mean it there was dissin

1795
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:30,020
information was disclosed but again it's

1796
01:15:33,790 --> 01:15:32,690
your term weaponized you know what do

1797
01:15:35,710 --> 01:15:33,800
you think a table what do you think

1798
01:15:37,300 --> 01:15:35,720
computer living my Peter Levin to quote

1799
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:37,310
that I do have to get you to respond to

1800
01:15:40,510 --> 01:15:39,050
the one that just had me pounding on the

1801
01:15:42,010 --> 01:15:40,520
table I was like I gotta push this back

1802
01:15:44,440 --> 01:15:42,020
on Gordon because Gordon like theater

1803
01:15:48,250 --> 01:15:44,450
his freaks retelling of the story is

1804
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:48,260
well and then Tom DeLonge called me and

1805
01:15:51,340 --> 01:15:49,610
of course I hung up because I didn't

1806
01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:51,350
believe was times long and he calls me

1807
01:15:55,420 --> 01:15:53,510
back he said it really is and then we

1808
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:55,430
talked for a long time we go gosh we

1809
01:15:59,050 --> 01:15:56,930
really got to crack this thing there's

1810
01:16:01,150 --> 01:15:59,060
so much misinformation disinformation

1811
01:16:03,370 --> 01:16:01,160
out there we got to get to the bottom of

1812
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:03,380
that and we decided well the only way to

1813
01:16:12,490 --> 01:16:06,050
do that was to go to the military so

1814
01:16:15,670 --> 01:16:12,500
that's what we did . oh really that was

1815
01:16:18,130 --> 01:16:15,680
the only way to get to the bottom of it

1816
01:16:20,980 --> 01:16:18,140
i mean that isn't even a well-crafted

1817
01:16:23,380 --> 01:16:20,990
story I was like embarrassed that you

1818
01:16:27,730 --> 01:16:23,390
even try and spin that out there to me

1819
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:29,350
tell me tell me what you think in

1820
01:16:35,620 --> 01:16:32,570
general about the political SIOP

1821
01:16:38,220 --> 01:16:35,630
disclosure that was it was always gonna

1822
01:16:40,630 --> 01:16:38,230
be I won I think it's an abandoned one

1823
01:16:43,090 --> 01:16:40,640
we've had this discussion before I think

1824
01:16:45,330 --> 01:16:43,100
this stuff is to coincide with the movie

1825
01:16:48,730 --> 01:16:45,340
arrival and a Hillary Clinton presidency

1826
01:16:50,590 --> 01:16:48,740
no idea which happened and they it's

1827
01:16:52,710 --> 01:16:50,600
it's like a movie right we have it in

1828
01:16:56,440 --> 01:16:52,720
the can with all the money I've got it

1829
01:16:57,850 --> 01:16:56,450
because this if you look at what and you

1830
01:16:59,020 --> 01:16:57,860
you'll be an agreement in most of your

1831
01:17:00,850 --> 01:16:59,030
guests when you talk about this stuff

1832
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:00,860
will as well if you look at the majority

1833
01:17:09,330 --> 01:17:04,970
of the the kind of classic era UFO cases

1834
01:17:11,590 --> 01:17:09,340
they are patently us cold war propaganda

1835
01:17:13,660 --> 01:17:11,600
covering secret military projects and

1836
01:17:14,950 --> 01:17:13,670
and and trying to kind of like influence

1837
01:17:16,300 --> 01:17:14,960
the Soviets and since it's like well

1838
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:16,310
maybe they do have a flying saucer like

1839
01:17:21,010 --> 01:17:18,170
there's a lot of a lot of stuff in the

1840
01:17:24,940 --> 01:17:21,020
kind of classic cases is that now all of

1841
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:24,950
a sudden we have yet another kind of op

1842
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:27,730
of like oh well maybe we have these

1843
01:17:32,230 --> 01:17:30,170
these flying saucers and these these

1844
01:17:33,940 --> 01:17:32,240
special ray guns and and we got this

1845
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:33,950
from aliens and it's it's important that

1846
01:17:37,750 --> 01:17:35,210
the American people know that this is

1847
01:17:38,950 --> 01:17:37,760
here and that was to coincide with what

1848
01:17:42,540 --> 01:17:38,960
you're still getting two-thirds of

1849
01:17:44,890 --> 01:17:42,550
Washington trying to want which is a a

1850
01:17:47,020 --> 01:17:44,900
conflict with Russia and a military

1851
01:17:50,110 --> 01:17:47,030
dominance of Eurasia so I think this is

1852
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:50,120
literally a a semi abandoned or let's

1853
01:17:55,330 --> 01:17:53,090
see how this goes more air cover for the

1854
01:17:56,890 --> 01:17:55,340
kind of things that we're going on in

1855
01:17:58,690 --> 01:17:56,900
the Cold War cause really new Cold War I

1856
01:18:00,550 --> 01:17:58,700
think it's meant I think it's weird I we

1857
01:18:02,590 --> 01:18:00,560
talked about I honestly think he's been

1858
01:18:03,970 --> 01:18:02,600
mind-controlled several times and I

1859
01:18:06,610 --> 01:18:03,980
don't know if you've heard him on some

1860
01:18:08,500 --> 01:18:06,620
of the earlier interviews where he's

1861
01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:08,510
they're calling people from the car and

1862
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:10,880
or he's like meeting people at the front

1863
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:11,930
of the Pentagon in the middle of the

1864
01:18:18,010 --> 01:18:13,970
night and my my good dude he would being

1865
01:18:21,190 --> 01:18:18,020
mind-controlled so I just in adds a mess

1866
01:18:22,990 --> 01:18:21,200
I just interviewed Kevin day who is a

1867
01:18:26,710 --> 01:18:23,000
super interesting guy

1868
01:18:29,830 --> 01:18:26,720
so Kevin day is the the top gun

1869
01:18:32,860 --> 01:18:29,840
intercept Orchestrator of all those

1870
01:18:36,070 --> 01:18:32,870
planes that are on the tic-tac video

1871
01:18:39,430 --> 01:18:36,080
that gets released mm-hmm I can't go

1872
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:39,440
through the whole interview but the guy

1873
01:18:49,270 --> 01:18:43,370
certainly seems legit 1,000% legit and

1874
01:18:51,070 --> 01:18:49,280
the the PTSD valet Davis effect which I

1875
01:18:55,780 --> 01:18:51,080
wasn't familiar with do you know the

1876
01:18:57,280 --> 01:18:55,790
ballet Davis so valet Davis effect are

1877
01:19:01,150 --> 01:18:57,290
they went ahead

1878
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:01,160
they Jacques valet and I forget dr.

1879
01:19:07,180 --> 01:19:03,770
Davis's thing but they did a purity of

1880
01:19:11,410 --> 01:19:07,190
published analysis of the after effects

1881
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:11,420
of contact related experiences and this

1882
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:14,770
guy says all of them check every box

1883
01:19:20,590 --> 01:19:17,930
meanwhile he's going to VA clinics and

1884
01:19:24,070 --> 01:19:20,600
they're going oh complex PTSD and he's

1885
01:19:25,900 --> 01:19:24,080
like yeah kind of but not really and

1886
01:19:27,310 --> 01:19:25,910
then he stumbles across eight years

1887
01:19:27,850 --> 01:19:27,320
later because it's all happened a long

1888
01:19:30,670 --> 01:19:27,860
time ago

1889
01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:30,680
he stumbles across ballet Davis and he

1890
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:34,490
goes bingo exactly and he traces it back

1891
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:37,850
to when he actually went up on board

1892
01:19:41,050 --> 01:19:40,370
ship and actually took the glasses out

1893
01:19:48,910 --> 01:19:41,060
and

1894
01:19:50,740 --> 01:19:48,920
instantaneous experience meanwhile he's

1895
01:19:53,190 --> 01:19:50,750
using this state-of-the-art

1896
01:19:55,480 --> 01:19:53,200
billion-dollar war machine

1897
01:19:57,820 --> 01:19:55,490
instrumentation to track these things

1898
01:20:01,510 --> 01:19:57,830
every different way possible

1899
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:01,520
and he's seeing it and the other boats

1900
01:20:06,700 --> 01:20:03,890
and planes are seeing it but then

1901
01:20:09,250 --> 01:20:06,710
another interesting aspect of it is

1902
01:20:11,500 --> 01:20:09,260
there's again this screen memory thing

1903
01:20:12,820 --> 01:20:11,510
going on and he retells the story so

1904
01:20:14,140 --> 01:20:12,830
many times and I listened to it Gordon

1905
01:20:16,630 --> 01:20:14,150
and I finally asked him I said you know

1906
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:16,640
I've talked to enough contact he's let

1907
01:20:20,770 --> 01:20:17,930
me ask you this part about the

1908
01:20:25,890 --> 01:20:20,780
experience because you said that you

1909
01:20:30,100 --> 01:20:25,900
observed these 20 flying objects

1910
01:20:33,850 --> 01:20:30,110
basically trolling your ship for like

1911
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:33,860
four days and they were flying at 22,000

1912
01:20:39,490 --> 01:20:36,530
feet at a hundred knots can't do that

1913
01:20:43,210 --> 01:20:39,500
nothing can do that but you didn't think

1914
01:20:46,060 --> 01:20:43,220
it was anything to worry about I said I

1915
01:20:46,870 --> 01:20:46,070
gotta tell you how many times I've heard

1916
01:20:49,900 --> 01:20:46,880
that story

1917
01:20:53,530 --> 01:20:49,910
from a contact II oh I saw my wife being

1918
01:20:55,450 --> 01:20:53,540
abducted but I decided I should go

1919
01:20:57,400 --> 01:20:55,460
upstairs and go back to bed because

1920
01:21:00,160 --> 01:20:57,410
there was nothing there to worry about

1921
01:21:03,190 --> 01:21:00,170
so he not only has this experience but

1922
01:21:04,750 --> 01:21:03,200
all the other people in on the other

1923
01:21:08,050 --> 01:21:04,760
boats that you know are having the same

1924
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:08,060
experience oh those are nothing to worry

1925
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:08,690
about

1926
01:21:17,790 --> 01:21:13,130
they're just enough so I think there's

1927
01:21:21,790 --> 01:21:17,800
something more than just wargames

1928
01:21:24,460 --> 01:21:21,800
advanced weapon or advanced technology

1929
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:24,470
being hidden I think it's a real contact

1930
01:21:29,650 --> 01:21:26,810
experience and I think they're playing

1931
01:21:34,690 --> 01:21:29,660
around with true disclosure that is I

1932
01:21:39,700 --> 01:21:34,700
think there's there is disclosure that

1933
01:21:42,550 --> 01:21:39,710
could be planet changing but there's a

1934
01:21:44,530 --> 01:21:42,560
wrestling match of the usual kind in

1935
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:44,540
terms of who's going to control that

1936
01:21:49,450 --> 01:21:46,610
information and how and when they bring

1937
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:49,460
it out because obviously that can

1938
01:21:54,679 --> 01:21:52,850
dictate how the script gets written from

1939
01:21:57,239 --> 01:21:54,689
there on

1940
01:22:00,540 --> 01:21:57,249
yeah I'm not sure I'd go the whole way

1941
01:22:02,790 --> 01:22:00,550
there it may well be of course I what

1942
01:22:05,100 --> 01:22:02,800
the closest I would get to that because

1943
01:22:06,419 --> 01:22:05,110
I still think this is when I say it's an

1944
01:22:08,279 --> 01:22:06,429
op it doesn't mean because they know

1945
01:22:09,390 --> 01:22:08,289
damn well that they don't have some of

1946
01:22:10,830 --> 01:22:09,400
these toys that they're talking about

1947
01:22:12,540 --> 01:22:10,840
right and I don't know the origins of

1948
01:22:14,459 --> 01:22:12,550
those toys I don't think you necessarily

1949
01:22:16,140 --> 01:22:14,469
need to have a crush spaceship to make

1950
01:22:17,429 --> 01:22:16,150
some of the kind of things that existed

1951
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:17,439
when I'm supposed to but maybe that's

1952
01:22:21,569 --> 01:22:19,449
where you got them from I do think there

1953
01:22:26,459 --> 01:22:21,579
is a kind of signaling game going on at

1954
01:22:27,929 --> 01:22:26,469
a higher geopolitical level and I think

1955
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:27,939
Russia and China and obviously everyone

1956
01:22:34,739 --> 01:22:30,130
is playing alone this ain't like they're

1957
01:22:37,799 --> 01:22:34,749
trying to rattle sabers that we aren't

1958
01:22:39,239 --> 01:22:37,809
supposed to think exists so if you look

1959
01:22:40,410 --> 01:22:39,249
at the recent Russia thing that may or

1960
01:22:41,549 --> 01:22:40,420
may not be true that they have like a

1961
01:22:43,169 --> 01:22:41,559
ray gun that can cause hallucinations

1962
01:22:45,779 --> 01:22:43,179
and comments and they're putting on the

1963
01:22:47,189 --> 01:22:45,789
ship that may exist that may not but we

1964
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:47,199
have this kind of stuff going on in the

1965
01:22:51,330 --> 01:22:48,489
West it may have that and what I'm

1966
01:22:52,890 --> 01:22:51,340
seeing is oh just mean just put it on a

1967
01:22:54,750 --> 01:22:52,900
nation basis obviously because I think

1968
01:22:56,790 --> 01:22:54,760
we're potentially to geopolitically

1969
01:22:59,160 --> 01:22:56,800
sophisticated to to have it as a

1970
01:23:01,529 --> 01:22:59,170
national discussion or between nations

1971
01:23:03,390 --> 01:23:01,539
discussion but I do think in some of

1972
01:23:04,890 --> 01:23:03,400
this hullabaloo and front page and you

1973
01:23:06,179 --> 01:23:04,900
if for somebody to go in the front page

1974
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:06,189
of the New York Times it's get signed

1975
01:23:12,810 --> 01:23:10,510
off in Langley right so I do think

1976
01:23:13,949 --> 01:23:12,820
there's what we're seeing in a whole

1977
01:23:16,379 --> 01:23:13,959
bunch of different fora

1978
01:23:18,629 --> 01:23:16,389
at the moment on the geopolitical stage

1979
01:23:21,660 --> 01:23:18,639
people are rattling sabers that we

1980
01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:21,670
aren't supposed to know exists and and

1981
01:23:24,629 --> 01:23:23,199
that would be as close as I get to I

1982
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:24,639
think there's a wrestle over disclosure

1983
01:23:28,969 --> 01:23:26,170
I think they're like you go flying

1984
01:23:34,049 --> 01:23:28,979
saucers I got a vomit producing ray gun

1985
01:23:35,790 --> 01:23:34,059
perhaps hmm okay we might another topic

1986
01:23:39,500 --> 01:23:35,800
let's see if we have time to get to five

1987
01:23:41,609 --> 01:23:39,510
or not but this is one first of all

1988
01:23:44,759 --> 01:23:41,619
here's the guy you're looking at the

1989
01:23:48,179 --> 01:23:44,769
first guy I know who totally called odd

1990
01:23:50,939 --> 01:23:48,189
patreon probably a year ago yeah a year

1991
01:23:53,759 --> 01:23:50,949
ago said yeah no it ain't it ain't gonna

1992
01:23:56,009 --> 01:23:53,769
happen it's gonna turn the way that all

1993
01:23:58,259 --> 01:23:56,019
the other ones will turn as if we could

1994
01:24:01,739 --> 01:23:58,269
see those other ones turning censorship

1995
01:24:03,330 --> 01:24:01,749
hardcore softcore so tell us and you

1996
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:03,340
know I pulled to make my little meme

1997
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:06,489
there I think I'm not very interesting

1998
01:24:11,020 --> 01:24:07,250
head might just

1999
01:24:13,570 --> 01:24:11,030
last couple days from our buddy but you

2000
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:13,580
know jack conte who's the CEO of patreon

2001
01:24:19,150 --> 01:24:16,400
the news story that I ran across that I

2002
01:24:21,940 --> 01:24:19,160
thought you know for people like you and

2003
01:24:24,790 --> 01:24:21,950
I we can would love to spin it reading

2004
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:24,800
between the lines but his big news flash

2005
01:24:31,150 --> 01:24:27,530
was hey Patriot the current patreon

2006
01:24:35,230 --> 01:24:31,160
model is not sustainable and what he was

2007
01:24:36,940 --> 01:24:35,240
signaling was I think hey [\h__\h]

2008
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:36,950
get in line you worried about censorship

2009
01:24:41,530 --> 01:24:39,050
I'm gonna I'm gonna change the whole

2010
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:41,540
damn thing instead of getting 90% I'm

2011
01:24:45,730 --> 01:24:43,370
gonna tell you how much you can get and

2012
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:45,740
it's gonna be a lot less than 90% in the

2013
01:24:50,350 --> 01:24:47,570
future and more importantly what he's

2014
01:24:53,170 --> 01:24:50,360
signaling is I'm running a business here

2015
01:24:57,100 --> 01:24:53,180
and when I run a business I listen to

2016
01:24:59,590 --> 01:24:57,110
the people who basically set the rules

2017
01:25:02,500 --> 01:24:59,600
for my business and the rules for my

2018
01:25:05,860 --> 01:25:02,510
business going forward are censorship

2019
01:25:07,780 --> 01:25:05,870
because that's the game that is always

2020
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:07,790
going to be at play it's only a matter

2021
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:10,490
of who's doing the censoring what do you

2022
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:14,090
think of patreon well like my background

2023
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:16,400
I've been in startups and had them

2024
01:25:22,990 --> 01:25:18,770
acquired and from essentially my space

2025
01:25:24,460 --> 01:25:23,000
on a platform just gets worse

2026
01:25:26,230 --> 01:25:24,470
it happens with Facebook it happen for

2027
01:25:30,370 --> 01:25:26,240
Twitter and and from a commercial

2028
01:25:32,230 --> 01:25:30,380
perspective Etsy and PayPal both kick

2029
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:32,240
off businesses that they decide or

2030
01:25:35,050 --> 01:25:33,890
unilaterally like an astrologer or

2031
01:25:37,390 --> 01:25:35,060
something that they declare doesn't

2032
01:25:40,060 --> 01:25:37,400
exist so it's like you're always at risk

2033
01:25:42,690 --> 01:25:40,070
in our space whether it's a podcast or

2034
01:25:45,850 --> 01:25:42,700
whether it's magic or whatever you want

2035
01:25:51,130 --> 01:25:45,860
how many times do you have to get [\h__\h]

2036
01:25:53,410 --> 01:25:51,140
over by Silicon Valley's eternal just

2037
01:25:54,490 --> 01:25:53,420
nature before you go oh no this time

2038
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:54,500
it'll be different this time would be

2039
01:25:57,430 --> 01:25:55,730
great and so I did have a bit of

2040
01:26:00,460 --> 01:25:57,440
experience in like there's no way this

2041
01:26:02,890 --> 01:26:00,470
ends well because none of them have as

2042
01:26:05,350 --> 01:26:02,900
for the censorship component on a macro

2043
01:26:06,700 --> 01:26:05,360
basis I actually in a funny way I think

2044
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:06,710
it's good news

2045
01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:09,130
firstly it is surprising to me that

2046
01:26:16,190 --> 01:26:13,040
people didn't realize what platforms

2047
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:16,200
like Google like YouTube and whatever

2048
01:26:20,510 --> 01:26:18,600
actually were and I've kind of confused

2049
01:26:23,270 --> 01:26:20,520
it is some sort of public free

2050
01:26:25,370 --> 01:26:23,280
expression when it is a it's a corporate

2051
01:26:28,910 --> 01:26:25,380
product at back set back ends into DARPA

2052
01:26:31,460 --> 01:26:28,920
right so hold on I mean I think we have

2053
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:31,470
to make a distinction there because I'm

2054
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:34,170
with you when you say back into back

2055
01:26:39,980 --> 01:26:36,930
ends into DARPA but in another respect

2056
01:26:44,480 --> 01:26:39,990
it is the public square it is the Fourth

2057
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:44,490
Estate it is the of our time it is and

2058
01:26:49,070 --> 01:26:46,650
that play could have been made and I

2059
01:26:51,020 --> 01:26:49,080
think that you know that those questions

2060
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:51,030
will be answered in the courts years

2061
01:26:57,260 --> 01:26:53,970
from now but I look at it they're surely

2062
01:27:00,320 --> 01:26:57,270
going to lose because you know jack

2063
01:27:04,250 --> 01:27:00,330
conte can't on one hand say i banned

2064
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:04,260
this right-wing woman because she was

2065
01:27:08,950 --> 01:27:06,930
endangering our group got together and

2066
01:27:12,110 --> 01:27:08,960
decided i mean as soon as you start

2067
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:12,120
policing your content in that way then

2068
01:27:15,050 --> 01:27:13,530
you are in the business of

2069
01:27:16,790 --> 01:27:15,060
editorializing and you're putting

2070
01:27:18,620 --> 01:27:16,800
yourself in a little sure a whole

2071
01:27:20,660 --> 01:27:18,630
different thing so and the whole thing

2072
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:20,670
with like with alex jones we also have

2073
01:27:25,310 --> 01:27:23,730
up there like alex jones don't like alex

2074
01:27:28,250 --> 01:27:25,320
jones but i think he is kind of exposed

2075
01:27:30,650 --> 01:27:28,260
himself lately with the trump epstein

2076
01:27:32,450 --> 01:27:30,660
thing which he's gone a gone way over

2077
01:27:36,260 --> 01:27:32,460
clearly there's a connection there and

2078
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:36,270
for him to to allow his buddy Roger

2079
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:38,610
stone to get on there and say oh you're

2080
01:27:43,820 --> 01:27:41,490
like a classic digression but Roger

2081
01:27:46,790 --> 01:27:43,830
stone to to get on there and say the

2082
01:27:49,550 --> 01:27:46,800
only time Trump ever saw Epstein is when

2083
01:27:52,370 --> 01:27:49,560
his chauffeur drove him past his house

2084
01:27:54,860 --> 01:27:52,380
and he said oh look he must be heavy

2085
01:27:56,510 --> 01:27:54,870
he must be having a birthday party for

2086
01:27:58,730 --> 01:27:56,520
some young girls look at all the young

2087
01:28:01,250 --> 01:27:58,740
girls at that pool and then he realized

2088
01:28:04,460 --> 01:28:01,260
it was something more so he just drove

2089
01:28:06,500 --> 01:28:04,470
on by I mean this it has gone so over

2090
01:28:08,690 --> 01:28:06,510
the top with Alex that I don't know that

2091
01:28:11,780 --> 01:28:08,700
we can get him back to where he was

2092
01:28:14,630 --> 01:28:11,790
where he was really I think that true

2093
01:28:18,260 --> 01:28:14,640
truther and was dishing out some truth

2094
01:28:22,580 --> 01:28:18,270
but I digress again because the point is

2095
01:28:25,340 --> 01:28:22,590
you cannot ban someone on every [\h__\h]

2096
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:25,350
platform in a coordinated way on the

2097
01:28:30,860 --> 01:28:27,690
same day and have that not

2098
01:28:33,950 --> 01:28:30,870
that's clearly collusion and it's

2099
01:28:36,350 --> 01:28:33,960
clearly obstruction of obstruction of

2100
01:28:38,630 --> 01:28:36,360
trade and he will win in the courts but

2101
01:28:41,810 --> 01:28:38,640
it's gonna come five or seven years from

2102
01:28:44,570 --> 01:28:41,820
now when no one cares but it isn't as

2103
01:28:46,459 --> 01:28:44,580
simple as oh those are platforms and

2104
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:46,469
they can do whatever they want I mean

2105
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:47,850
that's something that is gonna have to

2106
01:28:54,860 --> 01:28:51,930
be here well I guess I'm just feeling it

2107
01:28:56,959 --> 01:28:54,870
tactically because my I've worked with

2108
01:28:58,250 --> 01:28:56,969
these companies that was my career

2109
01:29:00,500 --> 01:28:58,260
before I did this and like there's no

2110
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:00,510
way I would have there's no way I would

2111
01:29:04,370 --> 01:29:02,489
setup what it is they do in a way that

2112
01:29:06,709 --> 01:29:04,380
is reliant on any of them because again

2113
01:29:08,180 --> 01:29:06,719
it's Fox and the Scorpion I know how

2114
01:29:11,390 --> 01:29:08,190
they behave and they know how they end

2115
01:29:13,010 --> 01:29:11,400
up so yes there's absolutely a case and

2116
01:29:15,590 --> 01:29:13,020
here's the bit that I was kind of I got

2117
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:15,600
halfway through which is I actually see

2118
01:29:18,530 --> 01:29:17,040
this as good news and I don't mean the

2119
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:18,540
banning of people and so and every time

2120
01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:20,010
they do this and you're noticing and

2121
01:29:23,870 --> 01:29:21,570
especially with Twitter at the moment

2122
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:23,880
and the whole platform gets worst and

2123
01:29:27,860 --> 01:29:24,930
people don't want to be there anymore

2124
01:29:30,140 --> 01:29:27,870
every time they do this they make the

2125
01:29:33,459 --> 01:29:30,150
thing that they're trying to make safe

2126
01:29:35,990 --> 01:29:33,469
or better worse and it just seems like

2127
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:36,000
everyone's kind of working that out at

2128
01:29:39,380 --> 01:29:37,530
either looking for a new thing or

2129
01:29:43,700 --> 01:29:39,390
realizing that we do need to pivot

2130
01:29:45,350 --> 01:29:43,710
towards a a more decentralized to

2131
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:45,360
connect in an analogue way rather than

2132
01:29:49,550 --> 01:29:47,330
everyone hanging out on a platform I

2133
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:49,560
actually see it as a kind of good news

2134
01:29:55,370 --> 01:29:52,050
that there and it kind of shows him in

2135
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:55,380
many respects how scared they are or

2136
01:29:58,370 --> 01:29:56,730
aware they are that the kind of

2137
01:30:00,950 --> 01:29:58,380
overarching propaganda is failing

2138
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:00,960
because propaganda always kind of fails

2139
01:30:05,750 --> 01:30:03,570
before a regime change and you sort of

2140
01:30:08,959 --> 01:30:05,760
get the sense that we've got a few years

2141
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:08,969
left to run if these idiots making it so

2142
01:30:12,830 --> 01:30:11,130
much more awful because they've got

2143
01:30:17,660 --> 01:30:12,840
their marching orders from whoever like

2144
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:17,670
you know wherever they come from they

2145
01:30:23,420 --> 01:30:20,250
just it's gonna be crap but I actually

2146
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:23,430
kind of see it as a it's going to be

2147
01:30:27,380 --> 01:30:25,530
more slightly more difficult and this is

2148
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:27,390
just how the world works to be on the

2149
01:30:33,140 --> 01:30:30,930
Internet in a satisfactory way but in

2150
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:33,150
the medium term maybe that's good like

2151
01:30:37,970 --> 01:30:34,770
maybe we will end up with ways that

2152
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:37,980
don't rely wholly on everyone being on a

2153
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:40,370
platform that is they go DARPA funded

2154
01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:42,650
valence thing right I don't know I've

2155
01:30:49,390 --> 01:30:46,570
been beaten up a bit more yeah no I

2156
01:30:51,790 --> 01:30:49,400
spot-on I really like where you're going

2157
01:30:54,730 --> 01:30:51,800
and I think again that is being played

2158
01:30:57,310 --> 01:30:54,740
out as we speak because the third meme I

2159
01:31:00,070 --> 01:30:57,320
have up there is you know Joe Rogan's

2160
01:31:04,420 --> 01:31:00,080
recent interview with Jack Dorsey at

2161
01:31:07,990 --> 01:31:04,430
Twitter and the news out of that is you

2162
01:31:12,370 --> 01:31:08,000
know 10,000 thumbs down on YouTube

2163
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:12,380
because of Joe Rogan who if anyone who

2164
01:31:16,510 --> 01:31:14,210
doesn't understand him I don't want to

2165
01:31:21,220 --> 01:31:16,520
say he's a show cuz he's not but I mean

2166
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:21,230
he's just a part of that megaphone now

2167
01:31:26,860 --> 01:31:24,050
you know in some way that we don't

2168
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:26,870
totally understand and whether he's

2169
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:30,170
co-opted or just following the cheese

2170
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:32,090
that's laid down through the maze or who

2171
01:31:35,110 --> 01:31:34,880
cares or you know but you know there he

2172
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:35,120
is

2173
01:31:40,510 --> 01:31:37,610
tossing softball questions to Jack

2174
01:31:42,550 --> 01:31:40,520
Dorsey but to your point it's thumbs

2175
01:31:46,090 --> 01:31:42,560
down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down

2176
01:31:48,340 --> 01:31:46,100
to where you know he had to apologize to

2177
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:48,350
his listeners yeah right I'll do it

2178
01:31:54,250 --> 01:31:52,090
better next time yeah right and or

2179
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:54,260
YouTube should get rid of that thumbs

2180
01:31:59,560 --> 01:31:56,330
down thing anyway why don't we just have

2181
01:32:01,810 --> 01:31:59,570
likes we don't need this likes but to

2182
01:32:05,140 --> 01:32:01,820
your point I think those are the throws

2183
01:32:08,290 --> 01:32:05,150
of a dying fish you know what I mean

2184
01:32:09,820 --> 01:32:08,300
absolutely Netflix is doing it as well I

2185
01:32:14,260 --> 01:32:09,830
mean they actually got rid of the rating

2186
01:32:16,540 --> 01:32:14,270
system because Amy Schumer yeah when her

2187
01:32:18,730 --> 01:32:16,550
okay yeah when her show came out

2188
01:32:21,610 --> 01:32:18,740
whatever it was 18 months ago and it was

2189
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:21,620
terrible because they had she'd made

2190
01:32:26,950 --> 01:32:23,210
such a big fuss about being paid the

2191
01:32:29,290 --> 01:32:26,960
same amount as forget who and everyone

2192
01:32:31,480 --> 01:32:29,300
found it awful that they did what

2193
01:32:33,540 --> 01:32:31,490
YouTube may well do which is that I will

2194
01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:33,550
remove the negative bit guys this is

2195
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:36,410
this is not how you it's almost you

2196
01:32:39,420 --> 01:32:37,970
could always make a medical metaphor but

2197
01:32:41,350 --> 01:32:39,430
you were treating the symptoms here and

2198
01:32:43,270 --> 01:32:41,360
and I don't think they have the

2199
01:32:45,220 --> 01:32:43,280
awareness to do anything else I don't

2200
01:32:46,819 --> 01:32:45,230
really watch Alex Jones so I'm not sure

2201
01:32:50,990 --> 01:32:46,829
what he's up to or any

2202
01:32:54,140 --> 01:32:51,000
I enjoy Alex Jones immensely I have to

2203
01:32:57,410 --> 01:32:54,150
say because he's an entertainer he is

2204
01:33:00,770 --> 01:32:57,420
directly at this point especially he's

2205
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:00,780
completely crossed over the line too

2206
01:33:06,290 --> 01:33:03,570
we really can't take him anything other

2207
01:33:09,109 --> 01:33:06,300
than and then entertainment and for any

2208
01:33:12,740 --> 01:33:09,119
Oh everything after his apology to James

2209
01:33:14,810 --> 01:33:12,750
elephant is on it was it's all is

2210
01:33:17,030 --> 01:33:14,820
revealed you know why do we have to

2211
01:33:19,310 --> 01:33:17,040
apologize did James elephant this for

2212
01:33:21,740 --> 01:33:19,320
pizza gate why did we have to do that

2213
01:33:24,020 --> 01:33:21,750
well clearly to me there's some kind of

2214
01:33:26,149 --> 01:33:24,030
connection with his you know Trump has

2215
01:33:27,740 --> 01:33:26,159
taken that off the table that will not

2216
01:33:29,870 --> 01:33:27,750
be pursued there will not be any

2217
01:33:31,549 --> 01:33:29,880
draining of the swamp and I think the

2218
01:33:33,830 --> 01:33:31,559
orders came down there and that's the

2219
01:33:36,830 --> 01:33:33,840
thread that I follow with Alex Jones

2220
01:33:38,780 --> 01:33:36,840
that clarifies where that the whole

2221
01:33:40,629 --> 01:33:38,790
thing is gone but uh enough on him I had

2222
01:33:43,430 --> 01:33:40,639
one more topic labs and see if we could

2223
01:33:45,890 --> 01:33:43,440
if we could get there but in a lot of

2224
01:33:48,799 --> 01:33:45,900
ways I think we already have when we

2225
01:33:52,069 --> 01:33:48,809
talked about counterfeited spirituality

2226
01:33:56,479 --> 01:33:52,079
that seems to be strictly looking at

2227
01:33:59,359 --> 01:33:56,489
empirical data the data from the alien

2228
01:34:01,220 --> 01:33:59,369
contact experience mainly the data

2229
01:34:02,959 --> 01:34:01,230
that's been collected by bond buddy ray

2230
01:34:04,879 --> 01:34:02,969
Hernandez in the free organization

2231
01:34:08,060 --> 01:34:04,889
they're the only ones who did a real

2232
01:34:11,689 --> 01:34:08,070
scientific study of it including Leo

2233
01:34:13,790 --> 01:34:11,699
sprinkle and other PhD level Harvard PhD

2234
01:34:15,229 --> 01:34:13,800
level people who know how to collect

2235
01:34:18,410 --> 01:34:15,239
that kind of data for whatever it's

2236
01:34:20,060 --> 01:34:18,420
worth survey empirical data but those

2237
01:34:22,430 --> 01:34:20,070
experiences line up almost perfectly

2238
01:34:25,010 --> 01:34:22,440
with the near-death experience so sure

2239
01:34:26,919 --> 01:34:25,020
what do you do with that data one way to

2240
01:34:29,959 --> 01:34:26,929
interpret that is that these are truly

2241
01:34:32,089 --> 01:34:29,969
spiritual experiences and I'm one person

2242
01:34:36,500 --> 01:34:32,099
who's pounding the drum over there kind

2243
01:34:38,359 --> 01:34:36,510
of with your demonic trickster kind of

2244
01:34:42,470 --> 01:34:38,369
sensibility that you're expressing going

2245
01:34:45,350 --> 01:34:42,480
really are we sure it could the

2246
01:34:47,450 --> 01:34:45,360
technology again loosely using the term

2247
01:34:49,609 --> 01:34:47,460
technology be so developed that they can

2248
01:34:50,830 --> 01:34:49,619
counterfeit the spiritual experience and

2249
01:34:53,330 --> 01:34:50,840
I wonder if you have any thoughts

2250
01:34:55,970 --> 01:34:53,340
absolutely like when and I love rayon

2251
01:34:57,879 --> 01:34:55,980
and stuff as well this you know what I'm

2252
01:34:59,530 --> 01:34:57,889
gonna say like so if near-death

2253
01:35:05,610 --> 01:34:59,540
experiences or

2254
01:35:07,870 --> 01:35:05,620
contact and UFO cases have have a lot of

2255
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:07,880
structural similarities and had

2256
01:35:11,890 --> 01:35:09,650
after-effects in people's lives yeah

2257
01:35:14,470 --> 01:35:11,900
this is that kind of naive Western idea

2258
01:35:16,510 --> 01:35:14,480
of well then it you know well my my

2259
01:35:18,490 --> 01:35:16,520
granny's in heaven and and I spoke to an

2260
01:35:19,750 --> 01:35:18,500
alien so this must be good that's really

2261
01:35:21,160 --> 01:35:19,760
really not even you know what I'm gonna

2262
01:35:23,650 --> 01:35:21,170
say it looks like the spirit world to me

2263
01:35:25,810 --> 01:35:23,660
the spirit world is ambivalent and and

2264
01:35:28,690 --> 01:35:25,820
we just that's one of the things perhaps

2265
01:35:30,910 --> 01:35:28,700
we could learn by doing comparison a

2266
01:35:32,980 --> 01:35:30,920
little bit better so that we don't have

2267
01:35:35,190 --> 01:35:32,990
this binary of is it aliens or is it

2268
01:35:36,940 --> 01:35:35,200
ghosts and are they good or are they bad

2269
01:35:39,070 --> 01:35:36,950
there are a better way

2270
01:35:41,470 --> 01:35:39,080
literally objectively better ways of

2271
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:41,480
coming at this material and and

2272
01:35:45,190 --> 01:35:43,010
understanding that it has some

2273
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:45,200
ambivalence or it might have one or more

2274
01:35:49,300 --> 01:35:47,090
agendas like that's that's how we've

2275
01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:49,310
always interacted with as a species

2276
01:35:52,510 --> 01:35:51,050
that's how we've always interacted so

2277
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:52,520
you have a hundred percent with you and

2278
01:35:57,460 --> 01:35:55,010
that I love race stuff I do think on the

2279
01:36:01,300 --> 01:35:57,470
edges of that you do get people who are

2280
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:01,310
who are more optimistic about the

2281
01:36:05,980 --> 01:36:03,650
motives for extra dimensional contact

2282
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:05,990
and I think we should be maybe these are

2283
01:36:11,170 --> 01:36:09,410
business backward Alex you know maybe

2284
01:36:14,320 --> 01:36:11,180
this is something like that but I'm

2285
01:36:16,630 --> 01:36:14,330
generally I want to know why someone is

2286
01:36:22,060 --> 01:36:16,640
nice yeah I want to know why someone is

2287
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:22,070
being nice yes that that is a business

2288
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:25,610
value that I can definitely tune into

2289
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:28,970
you know it's it's been awesome we've

2290
01:36:33,190 --> 01:36:31,010
spent you an hour and 45 minutes it's

2291
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:33,200
flown by Gordon tell folks

2292
01:36:38,470 --> 01:36:35,810
what's going on with Rhian soup and

2293
01:36:40,420 --> 01:36:38,480
where the hell is the book buddy you

2294
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:40,430
know yeah gotta be one or two of them

2295
01:36:45,610 --> 01:36:43,130
out there what's what's the delay um the

2296
01:36:46,780 --> 01:36:45,620
delay is I'm you know I have about three

2297
01:36:48,190 --> 01:36:46,790
full-time jobs at the moment because

2298
01:36:49,930 --> 01:36:48,200
they have a brand new farm which is a

2299
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:49,940
full-time job and I have a Premium

2300
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:51,050
Membership because they don't use

2301
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:52,610
patreon for people who like this kind of

2302
01:36:58,120 --> 01:36:54,410
stuff we do quarterly courses the next

2303
01:37:00,390 --> 01:36:58,130
one is on ancestors and contact with the

2304
01:37:03,130 --> 01:37:00,400
dead and so you can do that Edwin suit

2305
01:37:05,620 --> 01:37:03,140
obviously the majority of it is free the

2306
01:37:07,090 --> 01:37:05,630
show the blog and the Facebook page if

2307
01:37:09,370 --> 01:37:07,100
somebody wants to take a course just a

2308
01:37:11,590 --> 01:37:09,380
kind of detail there someone wants to

2309
01:37:11,850 --> 01:37:11,600
take a course how do they pay for it are

2310
01:37:13,380 --> 01:37:11,860
you

2311
01:37:15,900 --> 01:37:13,390
into patreon if they want to do that I

2312
01:37:17,220 --> 01:37:15,910
don't a picture and you're like you just

2313
01:37:18,960 --> 01:37:17,230
click on the members section of the

2314
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:18,970
website and join up it's the same idea

2315
01:37:23,340 --> 01:37:21,850
like yeah there's a monthly fee and well

2316
01:37:24,780 --> 01:37:23,350
there's a monthly membership but it's

2317
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:24,790
not just the one course we don't sell

2318
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:26,530
them differently we do like the live

2319
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:28,570
video and people go in holidays together

2320
01:37:34,350 --> 01:37:31,330
and oh all kinds of weird it's it's it's

2321
01:37:36,750 --> 01:37:34,360
a really fun and missing group lunatics

2322
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:36,760
like me but if you're meant together

2323
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:41,170
right you guys do oh yeah and I in fact

2324
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:42,970
credit the fact that this sixty thousand

2325
01:37:48,450 --> 01:37:45,010
hectare bushfire got 800 meters from the

2326
01:37:51,330 --> 01:37:48,460
farm and no further to the repeated kind

2327
01:37:53,310 --> 01:37:51,340
of intention exercises and and nakshatra

2328
01:37:55,470 --> 01:37:53,320
mantras we did on a big simultaneous

2329
01:37:57,510 --> 01:37:55,480
group basis and it's it's been an

2330
01:38:00,660 --> 01:37:57,520
incredible last few weeks and if that

2331
01:38:03,540 --> 01:38:00,670
kind of if you like if you like

2332
01:38:08,100 --> 01:38:03,550
exploring sceptical style content in a

2333
01:38:09,870 --> 01:38:08,110
way that is is embodied I guess that

2334
01:38:15,240 --> 01:38:09,880
might be for you it might not listen to

2335
01:38:17,190 --> 01:38:15,250
the show anyway who are the I have not

2336
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:17,200
popped over there I'm a member but I

2337
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:20,410
just haven't made the leap and I don't

2338
01:38:24,810 --> 01:38:21,730
know exactly why because I want to poke

2339
01:38:29,460 --> 01:38:24,820
in there I love that idea of embodying

2340
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:29,470
it in finding like-minded folks who's

2341
01:38:34,110 --> 01:38:32,050
coming over there give me an idea of the

2342
01:38:37,350 --> 01:38:34,120
of the profile I'm sure it's a wide

2343
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:37,360
variety of folks but yeah there's

2344
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:38,890
there's a lot of sort of background and

2345
01:38:42,780 --> 01:38:40,690
interest overlaps magic being the

2346
01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:42,790
principle when is a magic we operate

2347
01:38:46,140 --> 01:38:44,650
people by and large and the course is it

2348
01:38:47,070 --> 01:38:46,150
very specifically because they vote on

2349
01:38:49,710 --> 01:38:47,080
them they're very specifically about

2350
01:38:52,590 --> 01:38:49,720
magic but we'll end up doing other ones

2351
01:38:54,930 --> 01:38:52,600
eventually and so with this fascinating

2352
01:38:57,890 --> 01:38:54,940
overlaps with people without their

2353
01:39:01,130 --> 01:38:57,900
permaculture background or philosophy

2354
01:39:04,230 --> 01:39:01,140
the majority of them are in the u.s.

2355
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:04,240
yeah it's there they're amazing and

2356
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:06,610
their lives they get up to and this is

2357
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:08,290
one of the things that's from about our

2358
01:39:11,090 --> 01:39:09,370
little world you meet the most

2359
01:39:13,650 --> 01:39:11,100
remarkable people

2360
01:39:15,270 --> 01:39:13,660
awesome well I really hope people check

2361
01:39:17,220 --> 01:39:15,280
that out and they're gonna find me over

2362
01:39:18,810 --> 01:39:17,230
there more because I really want to do

2363
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:18,820
that I think what you're creating and

2364
01:39:22,740 --> 01:39:20,650
the community that you're creating is

2365
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:22,750
super important and talk about embodying

2366
01:39:26,300 --> 01:39:23,610
it in

2367
01:39:28,340 --> 01:39:26,310
here's a guy that a couple years ago was

2368
01:39:31,010 --> 01:39:28,350
talking I remember when we were talking

2369
01:39:34,310 --> 01:39:31,020
we're sitting out on the patio near my

2370
01:39:38,090 --> 01:39:34,320
house and you were visualizing what you

2371
01:39:40,220 --> 01:39:38,100
did manifest I mean exactly

2372
01:39:42,140 --> 01:39:40,230
and it was really kind of remarkable to

2373
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:42,150
see you go through that process so you

2374
01:39:46,700 --> 01:39:44,730
have a nice little apple farm and

2375
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:46,710
whatever else you're farming there on

2376
01:39:52,670 --> 01:39:49,290
the edge of the world over looking at

2377
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:52,680
arctica and you've tell people a little

2378
01:39:56,630 --> 01:39:55,170
bit about that project that you've that

2379
01:39:58,940 --> 01:39:56,640
you've undertaken there because I know a

2380
01:40:01,430 --> 01:39:58,950
lot of people really find that it's kind

2381
01:40:05,990 --> 01:40:01,440
of the total reframe of the prepper

2382
01:40:09,230 --> 01:40:06,000
thing into a positive lifestyle where I

2383
01:40:13,190 --> 01:40:09,240
want to be regardless of how good or bad

2384
01:40:15,290 --> 01:40:13,200
things get no exactly so I mean I'm a

2385
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:15,300
permaculture designer and events officer

2386
01:40:19,220 --> 01:40:17,130
for permaculture tasmania we've only

2387
01:40:20,930 --> 01:40:19,230
just got here so it'd only been here

2388
01:40:23,180 --> 01:40:20,940
twelve months so it still just looks

2389
01:40:25,190 --> 01:40:23,190
like over grace sheet paddock with a few

2390
01:40:28,100 --> 01:40:25,200
things that we've planted right but that

2391
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:28,110
is the general idea to kind of live you

2392
01:40:35,810 --> 01:40:31,650
know in a way that is experimental in

2393
01:40:37,670 --> 01:40:35,820
the sense of there are permaculture this

2394
01:40:40,580 --> 01:40:37,680
is a whole separate show right it is in

2395
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:40,590
a really interesting place in terms of

2396
01:40:44,510 --> 01:40:42,930
what it does next and I'm very

2397
01:40:46,250 --> 01:40:44,520
interested in that overlap I know dr.

2398
01:40:48,380 --> 01:40:46,260
hunter is as well and contributing to

2399
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:48,390
his latest book in that kind of sense so

2400
01:40:52,790 --> 01:40:50,400
yeah we live on five acres in in

2401
01:40:54,920 --> 01:40:52,800
southern Tasmania and beginning a sort

2402
01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:54,930
of permaculture journey which will

2403
01:40:57,050 --> 01:40:55,290
include

2404
01:40:58,700 --> 01:40:57,060
you know on-farm produce and

2405
01:41:00,680 --> 01:40:58,710
accommodation and and all the other

2406
01:41:02,390 --> 01:41:00,690
things and it's amazing yeah when it's

2407
01:41:05,440 --> 01:41:02,400
not on fire it's an amazing place to be

2408
01:41:07,670 --> 01:41:05,450
awesome well it's been just great

2409
01:41:09,200 --> 01:41:07,680
reconnecting with your own skeptic oh I

2410
01:41:12,230 --> 01:41:09,210
know so many people will appreciate this

2411
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:12,240
interview Gordon do take care or let's

2412
01:41:16,130 --> 01:41:14,010
stay in touch and thanks again for